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Crows are even smarter than we thought

nautil.us

171–180 of 304 posts

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#171
post #167

We have come a long way from Descartes argument that animals are no more than automata. Which supported our unabashed exploitation of countless species. It is now abundantly clear that animals have their own phenomenological experience of the world, and their intelligence is part of a continuum, shaped mostly to survive in their niches. And some species demonstrate a higher level of general intelligence - something i…

Well, many argue that humans are no more than automata.

So from that view Descartes argument holds, but the conclusion that such a life has no meaning does not.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#172

We're not the only intelligent life on earth. We cant even define intelligence or measure it meaningfully. If we accept that human children are smart, then we must accept that species at equivalent levels of cognition are as well. Elephants, crows, dolphins, octopi, chimps, orang utan are all clearly very smart, and more intelligent than a human child. Besides being biologically irrelevant, the separation between hum…

I like the sentiment, but human children who are 2 completely dominate all known animal intelligence. They can speak in sentences and use tools in complex ways. There may be studies that show a raven might use a stick to help it find food. Well, a two year old will carry a stool halfway across the house to reach the scissors that will open a bag of veggie straws :) At 3 they can recognize letters _easily_ and start l…

I've interacted with 6 month old puppies that can outsmart a 2-3 year old human baby.

Fawns/calves/... can walk almost as soon as they are born. It takes humans far longer to learn that.

If you put a 2-year old human child with every single possible benefit on its own into the wild, its chances of survival are pretty slim. Some creatures never see their parents and thrive.

IMHO, humans are special to other humans because we are built to value "our own." We have "us vs them" deeply ingrained such that many humans can't even accept that we are also animals. We also tend to value the things we can do over the things other species can do. This leads to arguments about how great we are at recognizing things we have evolved ourselves and our environment to do.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#173
post #96

What if they’re all, by our own definition, intelligent… … but what makes us special is that we’re the only ones who care ? What if ego is the unique human trait? What if the reason my goats don’t communicate with me isn’t because they’re dumb… but because they couldn’t care less ?

Ego, motivation, a sense of quest, existential dread, trouble-making. Perhaps so.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#174
post #16

Apparently you can scare a few of them like crazy from your land and they will tell their bros to stay away.

This is what I find most fascinating. That crows are capable of gossip, organization, planning and execution. "you know that dude that lives by the water? protect him he feeds us." "you know the big guy that walks his dog and barks at us? we found out where he lives." I've seen crows execute their own (seriously). They would crowd and walk him over the edge and when he fell they would just attack him. I've seen crows…

Communicating about something not immediately present is called displacement [1] and it's a property of language, not limited to vocalization, thought to be unique to just a few species: humans, ants, bees, corvids, etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(linguistics)

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#175
post #167

We have come a long way from Descartes argument that animals are no more than automata. Which supported our unabashed exploitation of countless species. It is now abundantly clear that animals have their own phenomenological experience of the world, and their intelligence is part of a continuum, shaped mostly to survive in their niches. And some species demonstrate a higher level of general intelligence - something i…

As far as I can tell, current theories are that animals are also somewhat conscious and intelligent, but that we're all, including humans, automata, with zero or near zero free will.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the sentiment, but human children who are 2 completely dominate all known animal intelligence. They can speak in sentences and use tools in complex ways. There may be studies that show a raven might use a stick to help it find food. Well, a two year old will carry a stool halfway across the house to reach the scissors that will open a bag of veggie straws :) At 3 they can recognize letters _easily_ and start l…

I've interacted with 6 month old puppies that can outsmart a 2-3 year old human baby. Fawns/calves/... can walk almost as soon as they are born. It takes humans far longer to learn that. If you put a 2-year old human child with every single possible benefit on its own into the wild, its chances of survival are pretty slim. Some creatures never see their parents and thrive. IMHO, humans are special to other humans bec…

Ability to survive != intelligence

Off the back of this comment I’ve just flicked back to a random video of my then 2 yo where we have a discussion about how houses in real life aren’t normally the colour of the ones in the kids book she’s reading.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#177
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should establish that the crow would only 'attack' any human living in this flat (and neglect any other human walking by this back alley).

I’m surprised no one has attempted to train crows for use in asymmetrical warfare. At least before the advent of cheap drones.

They'd still be better than cheap drones at remote pick-pocketing - if you could train them to spot and snatch coins and bills.

I was wondering about the opposite too. Could you train a crow to watch you throw a marker, say a pebble of specific color, and then fly to the location it landed to perform specific action? Say, if we go for personal mischief instead of warfare:

- red marker = find whatever interesting object there is (e.g. man-made things it can carry, or money), and fetch it;

- blue marker = grab a payload from you and deposit it at location (e.g. a piece of paper, a "stinky bomb")

- orange marker = hover over location for a while, or explore it (useful with e.g. crow-mounted camera; throw marker over a fence or on a roof, get footage of place you can't get to)

- violet marker = make noise, scare away meanest looking people or animals near target (say, to chase away partying college students that decided to occupy the nearby children playground before sundown, or to remind the neighbor blasting his car radio at 5:30 in the morning that there exists small children, or decency, or noise rules) (both totally random hypothetical scenarios, yes); alternatively, to patrol the area for a while and make noise if people show up;

- rose marker = find nearest switch or lever, flick it;

Etc.

Of course the crow would need to be trained to fetch the marker back after executing the action, as to prevent accidental repeat actions, make markers reusable, and ensure there's no evidence left behind :).

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#178
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should establish that the crow would only 'attack' any human living in this flat (and neglect any other human walking by this back alley).

About 6 eagles live nearby. I often see them circling overhead hunting wabbits. (Occasionally they'll bag a small aircraft.) One day, I was out for a walk and one of them was gliding at eye level and passed me. I could have touched its wingtip it was so close. My gawd, what a magnificent bird. I then understood why combat pilots would paint them on the sides of their fighters. It was much bigger than I realized, and…

Raptor talons are really serious weapons - they are the killing mechanism, not the beak. In larger birds comparable to a Rottweiler’s jaw in power. They also have a ratchet-like behaviour, so the bird has to actually want to let you go once you have been grabbed, and struggling usually only makes the bird grip harder

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#179
post #167

We have come a long way from Descartes argument that animals are no more than automata. Which supported our unabashed exploitation of countless species. It is now abundantly clear that animals have their own phenomenological experience of the world, and their intelligence is part of a continuum, shaped mostly to survive in their niches. And some species demonstrate a higher level of general intelligence - something i…

It's not abundantly clear what the ability to have phenomenological "experiences" means in relation to our moral values regarding what we shouldn't do with the creature. I mean, we do have moral values about animal rights, but they start with the animals we actually relate to (pets) and are in essence human rights by proxy. Then out of a sense of consistency we try to extend these rights to all the wild animals, many of them busily eating one another and blatantly not caring about nice things or participating in our value system.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#180

We're not the only intelligent life on earth. We cant even define intelligence or measure it meaningfully. If we accept that human children are smart, then we must accept that species at equivalent levels of cognition are as well. Elephants, crows, dolphins, octopi, chimps, orang utan are all clearly very smart, and more intelligent than a human child. Besides being biologically irrelevant, the separation between hum…

I like the sentiment, but human children who are 2 completely dominate all known animal intelligence. They can speak in sentences and use tools in complex ways. There may be studies that show a raven might use a stick to help it find food. Well, a two year old will carry a stool halfway across the house to reach the scissors that will open a bag of veggie straws :) At 3 they can recognize letters _easily_ and start l…

That is not the entire story, pigs have been shown to score higher on emotional intelligence (iirc) than human children age 4-6. As in, they have a higher ability for empathy and emotional distress than most toddlers.
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