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EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

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Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#131

Post by perihelions »

cpursley wrote: post #82
even_639765 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fascism you're looking for is in the UK and France this month.

I still can’t get over that the UK arrests people over social media posts. Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?

- "Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?"

I'm not aware of any other country with stronger protections, on the topic of the thing going on in the UK, of heated and violent rhetoric than the US has. US jurisprudence explicitly protects advocacy of violence and lawbreaking (up to the Brandenburg test is a very high bar), and I don't know if there's any other country with comparable protections.

(By which I specifically don't mean "has 'freedom of speech'" written on paper somewhere; nor "doesn't typically hassle people over tweets (but has legal options to do so should they choose)". I mean binding case law that weighs quasi-incitement to violence against the right to hyperbolic political rhetoric, and deliberately chooses the latter).

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#133

Post by lettergram »

cpursley wrote: post #82
even_639765 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fascism you're looking for is in the UK and France this month.

I still can’t get over that the UK arrests people over social media posts. Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?

Ugh I guess it depends what you mean —

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-wh...

https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23923733/douglass-mackey...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-or...

There’s also a bunch of stuff that falls under free speech most people don’t realize (at least in the US): what you can or can refuse put in your body, what you can refuse to say, how you spend your money, what you can hear, where you can read/write/speak/listen, etc

All of which has been being curtailed substantially in many ways since the 80s in the United States.

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#134

Post by amarcheschi »

dt3ft wrote: post #68
amarcheschi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chat you are referring to aren't encrypted, I don't see how breaking end to end encryption would affect the chat you're talking about. That's a problem that has to do with telegram governance. In telegram, group chats are not encrypted. 1:1 chats are also not encrypted if you don't start a secret chat before Now tell me, if law enforcement can just get into those group since they're not encrypted, why are not the…

The ordering process is likely handled in e2e 1:1 chat. The public and unencrypted channel is only used as advertising/entry point. The evidence of purchase is as such not accessible to the authorities.

I'm not sure whether you need evidence of purchase when you're actively marketing you sell drugs

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#135

Post by bloak »

smackay wrote: post #32
simion314 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know Orban changed the electoral law, he uses the votes from Hungarians outside Hungary (weird to vote for shit that does not affect you), the people in cities are not voting for him so he gets the votes from uneducated people that do not know a foreign language and get indoctrinated by the Orban controlled media. He is also super corrupt and Putin fanboy so most online English support he gets are from Ru…

Wikipedia always delivers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_citizen_voting "As of 2020 a total of 141 countries grant expatriates the right to vote in elections in their countries of origin."

An interesting feature of people voting from abroad is that it is very easy to make it very easy or very hard for them to vote, and the choice between those two options tends to depend on how the current government thinks those people are likely to vote. So some countries allow expatriates to vote, but voters have to fill in a load of forms and then turn up with various document at the embassy at a particular time, while other countries proactively hunt down their expatriates and send them a form in the post with a prepaid envelope.

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#136

Post by even_639765 »

LadyCailin wrote: post #104
cpursley wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still can’t get over that the UK arrests people over social media posts. Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?

The US does not have free speech. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-... I’m not suggesting the UK is better, btw, just rather that free speech already doesn’t exist anywhere. Some of these you can criticize because they aren’t public universities, and perhaps that’s fair, and the rest you can criticize because they weren’t arrested for protesting, but rather having “illegal encampments”, but…

The US enjoys free speech, but its not self enforcing.

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#137

Post by cjpearson »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #115
mrtksn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough, that's actually a sound proposal and is "somewhat" implemented as high ranking officials are expected to always be with someone documenting their acts. It is usually considered scandalous when they ditch their translator or secretary and talk with other high ranking officials in complete secrecy. It makes all the sense to have politicians %100 monitored %100 of the time. Store it in encrypted blackbox a…

Let's be fair, in a real democracy, there would be no government secrets... I mean.. we're paying for all that, we need to know. Imagine being an owner of a company, and having some middle managers talking stuff in secret and saying that you don't need to know stuff, just let them use the money, and you don't even get to see the contracts.

It's not too different in the corporate world. I'm an owner of Apple, Google, Microsoft and others and they refuse to divulge their secrets to me. I can't see their contracts, strategy documents or root passwords.

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#138

Post by blumomo »

baxtr wrote: post #96
sharpshadow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orban doesn’t need to crack down on political opposition he has a strong majority in his country.[1] I guess you have a wrong opinion about Hungary and Orban because the media doesn’t like him because he is a pain in the ass for many plans of the European Union and gets bad reporting. Hungary has by the way not even 10 million residents. 1. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarians-vote-orbans-...

I think one real good test of a democracy is to plot a line with years and above the name of the person ruling the country. In the US you will see at least every 8 years a different name on top of the line. I think a good democratic system will not have a new leader every year but maybe every 4-8 years. Anything below won’t be stable enough for mid/long term policy changes. Anything above will be good for the leader…

True. If only these elected leaders wouldn’t be controlled by institutions and individuals who (1) are handlers to the elected leaders and (2) are not even elected in the first place.

In the US, who currently has the power over your country? Is it your Biden (where is he?), your Harris? It someone else, maybe unelected?

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#139

Post by glenstein »

baxtr wrote: post #96
sharpshadow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orban doesn’t need to crack down on political opposition he has a strong majority in his country.[1] I guess you have a wrong opinion about Hungary and Orban because the media doesn’t like him because he is a pain in the ass for many plans of the European Union and gets bad reporting. Hungary has by the way not even 10 million residents. 1. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarians-vote-orbans-...

I think one real good test of a democracy is to plot a line with years and above the name of the person ruling the country. In the US you will see at least every 8 years a different name on top of the line. I think a good democratic system will not have a new leader every year but maybe every 4-8 years. Anything below won’t be stable enough for mid/long term policy changes. Anything above will be good for the leader…

And to your point, increasingly long tenures are increasingly suggestive of a breakdown in democratic norms.

Re: EU ChatControl is back on the agenda

#140

Post by buran77 »

vetinari wrote: post #89
TheChaplain wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise, I happen to agree with you -- why you should vote, if you don't feel the impact of your vote? Very strange attitude. I voted while I was abroad for two decades, because my family and friends were still there, and I wanted the best from them.

Your family and friends know, what is best for them and can vote for themselves. Meanwhile, you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation; you are going to have one of game of telephone one (I know, I also lived abroad for a while). As a result, you might do more damage than helping.

> you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation

You're walking a path you're almost guaranteed not properly equipped for. Probably nobody is but knowing not to charge ahead would already mean a lot.

If having a clear idea about the local situation is a prerequisite then what happens with locals exposed to misinformation? Do they lose the right to vote? Do you test people in advance to evaluate their level of understanding? If they vote for populist measures that are clearly unsustainable did they show a good understanding of the situation?

What happens if you're abroad but coming back in a year and are expected to live with a bad situation you could have helped avoid? Can you claim "sorry, I wasn't allowed to vote so the rules don't apply to me"? What about when you live abroad but (some of) the laws of your home country in which you're not allowed to vote still apply to you?

And more importantly, if you're living abroad and you can't vote in your home country because you're away but you can't vote in your country of residence because you're a foreigner, what happens to your right to vote? This right is given to citizens of a country just like many other rights, like the right to private ownership. If one can be taken away due to lack of proximity, can the other? Can that car or house that you haven't used in a year be taken away? What if you as a local didn't exercise your right to vote, should it be taken away because you don't need it?

> you might do more damage

You might too.

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