Brazilian court orders suspension of X • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#241

Post by jauntywundrkind » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 10:54 PM UTC

kgeist wrote: post #174

virgulino wrote: post #5

"People who use VPN to access X will be subject to daily fines of US$8,900" Edit: Thanks for this user https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 for posting the court order and bringing this new information: Apple and Google must remove all VPN apps from their stores! Apple and Google must DELETE all VPN apps already installed on users' phones!!! https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes...

Pretty hardcore even by the Russian standards. People aren't fined for using VPN here. That's some next level.

Let's see what happens when Google refuses to comply!

Not gonna happen. But it should, if this is the order!

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#242

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 10:55 PM UTC

In case people are not aware, numerous professors of law in Brazil, pro democracy organizations, and journalists have called the change in Brazil as a lunge towards authoritarianism. This justice in particular, Alexandre de Moraes, has been called a threat to democracy many times even a few years ago. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-...

Unfortunately the courts have made their own laws. De Moraes claims the court he previously served on gave him the power to issue secret unilateral censorship orders from the court he now serves on. It’s all convenient but obviously doesn’t pass the sniff test for legality. If the Brazilian governments wants new powers to censor the speech of political opponents, it must do so through constitutional change.

This is what Twitter/X is defending, and it is the right thing to defend. You cannot have democracy without free speech. And if businesses cannot conduct operations without threat of unreasonable fines and arrest of their legal representatives, then Brazil won’t be a good destination for business either. It is also very telling that Lula, who has a long history of corruption and scandals, came out to endorse Alexandre de Moraes’s actions. Meanwhile, other justices must either stay silent or support them to avoid retribution. It’s a scary time in Brazil.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#243

Post by codedokode » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 10:57 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #91

throwaway87267 wrote: post #13

The same judge that is responsible for X's suspension ordered Apple and Google to take down VPN apps from their app stores as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conju... (Page 49 and 50, document is in Portuguese) Brazil is heading down a very dark path.

Microsoft and Apple operating systems include native VPN clients capable of connecting to many commercial and enterprise VPNs. Some routers and mobile hotspots include VPN clients, over which mobile phone traffic can be routed. Arbitrary traffic can be tunneled over SSH to a low-cost VPS. Web browser extensions can tunnel traffic over SOCKS proxy. Tor/Tails can route traffic globally, without VPN. Other network arms…

VPN protocols are easy to recognize and block using DPI unless they masquerade as legitimate traffic.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#244

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 10:58 PM UTC

meroes wrote: post #137

ta8645 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be embarrassed to be such a petty authoritarian cheerleader just because that power is being abused against someone you dislike and disagree with.

You mean like Musk is happy to do what Brazil asked of him/X as long as it’s Turkey or another autocrat like Modi he wants to be in bed with?

For one, equating these different situations is ridiculous and shows you have almost no knowledge of each country, its politics, or its laws. Modi is not an autocrat, by a long shot. Erdogan, sure I can believe that at times, for example the purge after the failed coup. But each country’s cases are VERY different. In both Turkey and India, however, Twitter followed court orders because they were obviously legal per their local laws. In India’s case, the orders were public, transparent, and easy to challenge. In Brazil’s case, the orders are secret, not transparent to either the victim or platform, and impossible to challenge since Alexandre de Moraes is threatening to jail Twitter/X’s legal representative. The main problem is that such orders are unconstitutional in Brazil. No laws were passed to give the judiciary this power. None. It is illegal and authoritarian. Twitter is right to refuse these orders, per local laws.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#245

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:00 PM UTC

crop_rotation wrote: post #50

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #35

Well this is fun. Nice to see a government with some teeth for once instead of bowing to the whims of every multibillion mega corporation or agitated billionaire.

Yes very nice to see a court acting as judge jury and executioner all at once and fining random VPN users random amounts without needing boring things like law. Maybe Plato was right and philospher kings work best. /s

It’s not even a court but a single justice on the court, who claims he got the legal power from the other top level court, which he conveniently served on previously (seriously). No laws were passed to give Alexandre de Moraes the power to issue secret orders to censor, ban, or arrest without due process and without transparency to the public. Obviously no working democracy can tolerate these types of authoritarian attacks on free speech.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#246

Post by codedokode » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:02 PM UTC

dannyphantom wrote: post #216

throwaway87267 wrote: post #13

The same judge that is responsible for X's suspension ordered Apple and Google to take down VPN apps from their app stores as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conju... (Page 49 and 50, document is in Portuguese) Brazil is heading down a very dark path.

Thank you for the link. I uploaded the ruling to the Internet Archive along with a copy of the document I pushed through Google Translate (which may not be perfect). https://archive.org/details/Brazil-Court-Suspends-X > IN VIEW OF ALL THE ABOVE, given the necessary legal requirements, fumus boni iuris – consisting of the repeated, conscious and voluntary failure to comply with court orders and failure to pay the dail…

It is clearly seen that all of this has something to do with elections. I wonder if "digital militia" found some facts of rigging them?

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#247

Post by rafaquintanilha » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:03 PM UTC

brigadier132 wrote: post #37

Can someone explain the me what actual power do Brazilian supreme court justices have? Seems like Brazilian judges are like Judge Dredd.

The main issue here – and this is will eventually happen to every democracy – is that given the right incentives and conditions, _everything_ can be considered "legal" from a system perspective.

Because of authoritarian traumas post-WWII, most democracies evolved to a highly controlled executive, mostly by the judiciary – which is supposed to be monitored by the legislative.

But if you pack the court (the left is dominates Brazil in the last 40 years) and pay enough to the House (the executive controls the federal budget), you pretty much won the game (you are able to make your own rules).

It's amazing how someone from outside like Elon Musk is way, way more powerful than all elected representatives in Brazil, simply because he is somewhat independent from the political apparatus (the most voted congressman in the last election had been arbitrarily banned from social media, so votes really don't count).

The only way out is a combination of international pressure + local manifestations.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#248

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:08 PM UTC

wtcactus wrote: post #31

In judicial systems like the Brazilian (and sadly many European ones) a judge that’s sufficiently high up in the judicial ladder gets to be judge and jury. He is technically bound by the law, but he also has the power to interpret the law as he sees fit (many such cases in Portugal for instance). This system puts too much power in the hands of a single person and as such is ripe for abuse for personal causes… or wors…

Even in Brazil typically one person does not get to be judge and jury. Alexandre de Moraes is currently on the supreme federal court, and was previously president of the superior electoral court, which is the other top level court in Brazil. Note that De Moraes served on both courts at the same time. As part of his powers on the superior electoral court, he granted himself the authority to perform unilateral censorship through secret orders as part of his duties in the federal court. This is obviously not legal and totally absurd legal theory since it violates the separation of powers of these two courts. These powers should only be granted to the judicial system through new legislation or changes to the constitution.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#249

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:10 PM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #21

“Twitter doesn’t have a choice but to obey local governments. If we don’t obey local government laws, we will get shut down" - Elon Musk on decision to follow Modi's requests for censorship https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitt...

I am not sure why people keep bringing up Turkey or India as a justification for authoritarianism in Brazil. The orders for content takedowns in India were more obviously legal and were not done in secret, but in full public view with clear avenues for legal challenge.

On the other hand, in Brazil Alexandre de Moraes sits on two different courts at the same time and claims that one court gave him the power to unilaterally censor/ban/arrest people in secret from the other court. It is obviously a farce, even to the slightest investigation. Twitter/X is correct to challenge it since it isn’t legal within Brazil.

Re: Brazilian court orders suspension of X

#250

Post by walterbell » Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 11:11 PM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #243

walterbell wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft and Apple operating systems include native VPN clients capable of connecting to many commercial and enterprise VPNs. Some routers and mobile hotspots include VPN clients, over which mobile phone traffic can be routed. Arbitrary traffic can be tunneled over SSH to a low-cost VPS. Web browser extensions can tunnel traffic over SOCKS proxy. Tor/Tails can route traffic globally, without VPN. Other network arms…

VPN protocols are easy to recognize and block using DPI unless they masquerade as legitimate traffic.

Does Brazil have a national firewall like China?