Live data from Hacker News

NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com

61–70 of 95 posts

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#61
post #55
post #37

Let's say that a musician goes $50k in debt making an album. They are now given a choice: would you rather be listened to by 50 million people and get no immediate money, or by 10k people and be quickly made whole? Which do you suppose they'd choose? The fact is that celebrity, attention, and "coolness" are more than enough reward for most aspiring musicians. Anyone who gets famous by giving their art away has been m…

Unless the band you create is called Sparklehorse, and you're considered an indie-musician's indie-musician, and you collaborate with PJ Harvey and Tom Waits and Danger Mouse and James Mercer, and tour with Radiohead, and end up destitute living out of your old recording studio too in hock to hospitals to pay for mental health care and then shoot yourself in the chest. On the plus side: now you're extra famous.

Isn't this more an indictment of the U.S. social safety net than it is of the economics of music performance?

And, am I to conclude from your statement that, in fact, all artists who are as good as Sparklehorse are entitled to sufficiently remunerative compensation, in addition to their fame and prestige?

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#62
post #61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the band you create is called Sparklehorse, and you're considered an indie-musician's indie-musician, and you collaborate with PJ Harvey and Tom Waits and Danger Mouse and James Mercer, and tour with Radiohead, and end up destitute living out of your old recording studio too in hock to hospitals to pay for mental health care and then shoot yourself in the chest. On the plus side: now you're extra famous.

Isn't this more an indictment of the U.S. social safety net than it is of the economics of music performance? And, am I to conclude from your statement that, in fact, all artists who are as good as Sparklehorse are entitled to sufficiently remunerative compensation, in addition to their fame and prestige?

A. Yes

B. No

I'm just responding to the "fame can be its own reward" sentiment I detected.

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#63
post #44
post #7

Oh, boy, these threads are going to be a whole bucket of fun. 200-odd commenters competing to see who can most stridently express opposition to the copyright/royalty/license business model of mainstream music, and 5 of us getting yelled at for suggesting that maybe private businesses should be able to pick their own business models, even if they're completely idiotic, and that everyone has the right to simply not buy…

pg may well say that HN has not become Reddit, but it has. (yes, my account is less than a year old but this is a fresh start, my other account is 6x older)

I think you only say this because you haven't seen reddit any time recently or you've only looked at a select few sub-reddits.

Perhaps HN is closer to something like /. now, but I don't mind that. But it is really nothing like reddit (or at least reddit's front page).

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#64
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, I should be able to pick my own business model! What fun. I know: I'll just pay old investors with new investors' money. That may be completely idiotic, but it works. After all, nobody has to invest in my venture! There's always some risk in any investment, so it's only fair. Now, I'm definitely being too glib. But I think you are as well: it's a complicated issue, and simplifying it down to your view while b…

The problem with your message isn't that it's glib; it's that it isn't logical. "Just pay old investors with new investors" isn't a business model (it is, obviously, the definition of a Ponzi Scheme). "Pay a licensing fee for XXX" is.

It might be illegal, dishonest and relatively unsustainable, but it is a way to make money. And existing business models (even legal ones) can still be dishonest and unsustainable. It is actually a very similar model to a lottery, except there's more lying involved to get more people to put in more money. So it's just an illegal and unethical business model.

Also, the argument isn't that businesses shouldn't be able to use that model, it's that the government shouldn't be helping with draconian laws.

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not discouraging debate. I'm simply saying that arguing morality will fail to sway market forces, and the fact that record labels believe in the exact opposite is foolish, and bordering on ignorant. The record labels can stand on the side of "good" until they go bankrupt. Pyrrhic victories do nothing for the bottom line.

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying "right and wrong don't matter, what matters is what you can get away with". In other words, "might makes right". Well then! In that case, I have very much chosen the wrong business model. Perhaps I should reconsider. A better business model might be: NO UPFRONT FEES FOR SQL INJECTION VULNERABILITIES! Woohoo! In fact, no upfront anything ! We'll just go ahead and find them.…

I'm not saying that at all, in any way, shape or form.

My argument is that people are failing to distinguish the moral argument from the economic one. Market forces don't have to be just or moral, they just have to be exactly that... market forces. There's no room for a "morality" variable in an economic formula, there's only concrete numbers that dictate price and demand.

In this case the market has decided that they will not use the current business model offered by the record labels. This same market has shown exactly what they want, and given birth to many new, profitable business models (Spotify, for instance). For the record companies to BLATANTLY IGNORE these market forces, and instead rely upon moral arguments to sway consumer thinking is becoming a more and more untenable position. It has very clearly not worked[1]. Thus, for the record labels to continue to offer this business model is very clearly not in their best economic interests.

Note that I am not passing judgement on either side. In my personal opinion pirating music without paying for it is clearly wrong. However my personal ethics have no effect on the fact that millions of people pirate millions of songs every day, and the fact that they will continue to do so until the current record companies (in their current form) will become extinct.

If the record labels truly want to win this battle they will provide consumers with a legal alternative that suits the market's demands[2]. That will not only erase the issue of morality, but will allow them to continue to profit. Now, obviously, companies have the right to choose whatever business model they want. That does not mean that the market has the OBLIGATION to support said business model. A better business model might, in fact, be "NO UPFRONT FEES FOR SQL INJECTION VULNERABILITIES! Woohoo! In fact, no upfront anything!". Doesn't mean it should be enacted, or that the market will decide to support it.

I'm simply trying to couch the debate in purely economic terms for the purpose of clarifying the exact problem and solution.

Now straying from the issue at hand, why are you bringing politics into this? What does you being a "well-off liberal Democrat with good career prospects" have to do with the current music industry? Furthermore, what gives you the idea that the "other side" (I'm assuming you're talking about Republicans) support "Free music"? Even if that wasn't your intention, by introducing the political paradigm you open yourself up for that exact interpretation. But even beyond all of that, I would say that by bringing the us vs. them mentality ("the other side") into the discussion you've already cheapened the debate from an intellectual discussion to a personal soapbox.

[1] To be frank, the average joe, and especially the average 21 and under individual doesn't give a rat's ass about the morality argument.

[2] This might include investigating several new methods of revenue if the market continues to demand free music (endorsements, lifestyle brands, etc. not necessarily concerts and merchandise sales). Not saying this is "right" or "just", just merely stating possibilities.

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no economist, but AFAIK market forces are defined by the way people buy/sell goods. Your analogy fails to draw a parallel since you have only one side, the seller. Also, you're talking about reselling here, where the main debate is the sharing of music. However I fail to realize where you deny this is "the market". Consumers are making their demands known by pursuing alternative ways of obtaining a good. Seems pr…

I'm not sure how this responds to my comment, since reselling books I scan from the library seems perfectly analogous to the market you propose.

There is a clear disconnect to both of our interpretations of each other's comments. Please see my response to the other comment in this thread.

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#67
post #27

Put morality aside for a second. The market has clearly dictated they will not support the business practices of the major record labels, and have instead resorted to alternate ways of obtaining their music. The record labels must adapt, or they will fall[1]. Econ 101. You can debate morality until the cows come home, but that's not going to change these simple facts. [1]Ignoring possible government interference

It's not "the market" when the new channel is based on ignoring contacts and copyrights, any more than it's "the market" that would be acting if I went to my local library, scanned all the books, and then resold them at "Bookio.com".

It's not what you as an individual might do that defines "the market" that pdeuchler refers to, it's how the majority of customers behave. If everybody was doing a lot of book scanning and freely sharing copies book publishers would have to find new business models or perish. If customers don't behave in a way that supports your business model, and you can't talk them into changing their behavior, you need to find a new business model.

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, to answer the broader question: we get to "demand" another choice simply by expressing an opinion about the structure of the market, the lack of sensible choices, and the existence of bugs in the legal system that need fixing. At least in this case, I don't think anyone in this discussion harbors any delusions that downloading a song qualifies as legal, but most of the people in this discussion can make a sens…

Did you read my comment, or did your nerd brain instantly detect "comparison between $PHYSICAL_PRODUCT and $ENTITY_EXPRESSIBLE_AS_A_NUMBER" and cause you to blurt out this comment? Because I addressed the point you thought you were making against my comment. I mean this playfully. If we were discussing DOM corruption or block cipher modes I would probably have a hard time carefully reading comments that disagreed wit…

I did read and fully understand your comment, and no, I don't think you've addressed the point in my comment. However, I do agree you've suggested a subtler issue than the one usually discussed in this context, and since my comment used terms like "scarcity" and "infinitely copyable", I may have come across as endorsing a much more simplistic argument than I intended to make.

You described the idea of taking a physical item and paying only the manufacturing cost of that item, and I'd assume you intended that to define copying a file as taking it and "paying" the copying cost of 0.

However, those two actions still have a fundamental difference, and not one of price. Assuming a price (zero or otherwise) also assumes a particular entity owed that price; the analogy you made assumes a price inherently owed to the original author of some piece of data, and that copying the file amounted to refusing that price and choosing to pay 0 instead. When I disagreed with that analogy, I didn't intend to imply that the zero cost of copying data provides a justification; rather, I disagreed with the implicit assumption of inherently owing any particular price to the author (zero or otherwise).

To elaborate on that distinction: if I want to copy a chair, I can look at it, perform measurements of it, perhaps perform some materials analysis, and given sufficient skill I can make a copy of it, all without affecting the original. I argue that I have the inherent right to perform that process. That process will almost certainly entail some cost to me: for instance, I'll have to purchase materials to build the copy. However, I don't inherently owe any price to the original designer or builder of the chair, beyond what I might have originally paid them to obtain the original chair. I'd consider the copying of a chair in this manner exactly analogous to the copying of a digital file in all relevant respects. As it turns out, copying digital files requires no particular measurements, materials analysis, or skill, and costs effectively nothing; however, that particular detail doesn't matter for the question we've both asked, namely "does the copier inherently owe anything to the author". And if we build a system to automatically analyze the chair and print a new one on a 3D printer, and can thus copy a chair at minimal expense, that doesn't affect the key question either.

Bringing that back in the direction of copyright, the same thing applies to the copying of a physical book: that process typically involves a non-zero cost, in some combination of time, wear on equipment (copier, scanner, etc), and possibly materials (if copying onto paper), but the conclusion remains the same.

And to go in a different direction: if I hear a song, and later sing it myself, I've copied it (lossily) with my brain and vocal cords, at zero cost to me and zero inherent price owed to the singer or author of the song. We've had infinitely copyable goods long before we had computers.

If you take a bag of M&Ms and pay less than the cost, the proprietor of those M&Ms no longer has them, and cannot then choose to do with them as they see fit; I'll assume from your use of that analogy that you already agree that such an action violates basic expectations of property rights, and that the proprietor of the M&Ms can choose to demand any particular price or none at all. I agree with you completely there: you don't have the inherent right to steal a bag of M&Ms because you find the price not to your liking. However, I hope I've made it sufficiently clear why I don't find that situation analogous to copying a file, or to copying a chair, or a book, or a collection of sound waves.

However, your analogy does actually suggest a rather clear approach to handling trade secrets, or (as brought up by another reply to my comment) private information. If someone chooses not to distribute certain information at all, then taking it from them against their will does not seem reasonable to me. For instance, if someone breaks into my personal system, copies my passwords or encryption keys, and distributes them to the world, I don't consider that reasonable, despite the copying occurring at zero cost; that situation seems quite analogous to the one you described.

That seems like an entirely different situation from the one more commonly addressed by copyright, namely the original author choosing to distribute information and then attempting to control the subsequent distribution of that information by others. I'd argue that the author has every right to choose what to do with the information they have, including not distributing it at all; however, if they choose to distribute that information to others, I'd also argue that those others have every right to choose what to do with the information they have, including distributing it further.

Hopefully I've managed to make it clear that my comment came from a position of careful thought, not from a pattern-matched knee-jerk reaction. :)

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#69
post #33
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my issues with this line of thought. For one, why is 99c considered "reasonable" for a song? I feel as though this price point has little to do with the economics of the song-making business and a lot to do with the economics of iTunes/etc. Secondly, what is "convenient"? Why is iTunes downloading convenient, but watching GoT on HBO's online service not? I'm not saying they are equal, I think iTunes is easier,…

Why do you get to demand a third choice, besides "Pay 99 Cents" and "Don't Get The Song"? A small bag of M&Ms costs, I don't know, 79 cents? Why is 79 cents considered reasonable for 29 peanut M&Ms? If I object to that price, and instead pony up the marginal cost of those M&Ms and their packaging (more like 13 cents), am I being reasonable or unreasonable?

Why do you get to demand a third choice, besides "Pay 99 Cents" and "Don't Get The Song"?

We get to because technology provides it. It's not about reasonableness, but ability and convenience. Is business and commerce suddenly subject to morality?

Re: NPR Intern Gets an Earful After Blogging About 11,000 Songs

#70
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my issues with this line of thought. For one, why is 99c considered "reasonable" for a song? I feel as though this price point has little to do with the economics of the song-making business and a lot to do with the economics of iTunes/etc. Secondly, what is "convenient"? Why is iTunes downloading convenient, but watching GoT on HBO's online service not? I'm not saying they are equal, I think iTunes is easier,…

To watch GoT online, you need to have HBO bundled with your cable package, so for someone without cable, that's essentially $100/mo. I would absolutely pay $10-20/mo or $30-40 to watch GoT just on HBO online or streaming through Amazon. So I would say the inconvenience is more aligned with having to sign up for cable than anything else.

Any OS restrictions on that GoT/HBO facility? Netflix does.
Post reply on HN