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Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

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Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#71

Post by speed_spread »

pif wrote: post #53
rowanG077 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news for whom? The mental safe space of old time kernel developers? Or good new for users who will continue to have to deal with kernel panics and other memory issues.

> The mental safe space of old time kernel developers? As long as they are the majority of the kernel developers, their wish is what matters the most.

The wish of the lead developer is for Linux development to continue beyond the life of the current maintainers. Training to be a competent system programmer using C is unnecessary long and painful. There aren't enough C hackers coming up anymore. The Rust learning curve is a bit sharper than C for the first weeks but gets you to a competent and non-dangerous state much more quickly after that.

This problem is not expected to be solved by current maintainers. They're just asked to make room for the next generation. "It should hurt you like it hurt me" is not an acceptable response.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#72

Post by steveklabnik »

ragebol wrote: post #70
pjmlp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like something for mobile phones using Rust alongside a managed runtime?

Would be interesting, maybe name it after a color... Can't find the name of that now. But there's also RedoxOS and probably several more.

He's talking about Android, not Fuchsia.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#73

Post by itishappy »

simion314 wrote: post #58
lifty wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is Redox but adoption and traction is minimal. But these things take time so maybe it will become popular in the future.

I would have expected more then one Rust kernels. It kind of seems that Rust community is missing the ability or the desire to implement a kernel and would like the Linux kernel devs to do the work for them.

It might seem like that if your only exposure to Rust is the comment you replied to.

https://github.com/flosse/rust-os-comparison

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#75

Post by simion314 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #61
simion314 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have expected more then one Rust kernels. It kind of seems that Rust community is missing the ability or the desire to implement a kernel and would like the Linux kernel devs to do the work for them.

There are tons of embedded kernels, Android uses Rust in their Linux, Windows already ships Rust in their kernel. Just because someone mentions one project doesn’t mean it’s an exhaustive list.

I mean notable projects, I do not consider toy projects in this.

Just because someone pushed some Rust into a kernel it does not make that kernel a Rust kernel, this is the issue with Rust community , hyping the fact that some devs managed to pushed a few lines of Rust in some kernel as some big victory.

Even Mozilla gave up on making a browser in 100% Rust, it seems that rewriting in Rust is not that easy and people like to talk then do the work.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#76

Post by aeurielesn »

nabla9 wrote: post #2

Rust Switching to a more modern topic, the introduction of the Rust language into Linux, Torvalds is disappointed that its adoption isn't going faster. "I was expecting updates to be faster, but part of the problem is that old-time kernel developers are used to C and don't know Rust. They're not exactly excited about having to learn a new language that is, in some respects, very different. So there's been some pushba…

IMHO, as a C developer, I love Rust's features but the syntax is terrible.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#77

Post by rowanG077 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #54
rowanG077 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit it's not often I see a direct panic. But I do see bugs caused by memory issues relatively often. In fact two weeks ago I made a patch for a memory issue in a wifi driver that caused it to drop connections. The long list of CVE is more direct proof though. By far most of them are memory safety issues. Suggesting making a new kernel is just total FUD. This is a multi decade project. It's like saying to a person…

> Suggesting making a new kernel is just total FUD. This is a multi decade project. Linux started as a hobby project of a single student and just a few years later it was already possible to build a full-blown UNIX desktop system with Linux as kernel. Why should that not be possible to replicate today? Especially with modern development tooling and a big and motivated language community?

What was acceptable in 1995 is not what is acceptable today. Linux took literal decades + in the billions of dollars to build. It's ridiculous to suggest a rust project can just catch up to that with a few developers and no funding in any sane timespan. If you think it's reasonable to suggest "Just outcompete this heavily and continuously developed 34 year old project which has the backing of the largest technology firms on earth" I really don't know what to tell you. We live in different realities.

That doesn't even begin to touch on the problem that linux came at just the right time.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#78

Post by sgbeal »

cogman10 wrote: post #37
computerthings wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was literally said didn't include the words "always" or "your dumb rust code". From the subtitles with slight manual fixes: > I suspect part of the problem here is you're trying to convince everyone to switch over to the religion as promulgated by rust and the reality is that ain't going to happen because we have 50 plus filesystems in Linux, they will not all be instantaneously converted over to rust. Before th…

They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique. I think I'm correctly reading the tone of the rest of the comment even if I didn't verbatim quote them. From the closed captions with minor editing. In response to "we are going to provide API bindings" > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust and the reality is that ain'…

> They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique.

If you'll re-read the quote you claim to be literally quoting, nowhere does it say "spreading your religion":

> > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust...

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#79

Post by colejohnson66 »

sgbeal wrote: post #78
cogman10 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique. I think I'm correctly reading the tone of the rest of the comment even if I didn't verbatim quote them. From the closed captions with minor editing. In response to "we are going to provide API bindings" > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust and the reality is that ain'…

> They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique. If you'll re-read the quote you claim to be literally quoting, nowhere does it say "spreading your religion": > > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust...

Potato pohtato

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#80

Post by steveklabnik »

simion314 wrote: post #75
steveklabnik wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of embedded kernels, Android uses Rust in their Linux, Windows already ships Rust in their kernel. Just because someone mentions one project doesn’t mean it’s an exhaustive list.

I mean notable projects, I do not consider toy projects in this. Just because someone pushed some Rust into a kernel it does not make that kernel a Rust kernel, this is the issue with Rust community , hyping the fact that some devs managed to pushed a few lines of Rust in some kernel as some big victory. Even Mozilla gave up on making a browser in 100% Rust, it seems that rewriting in Rust is not that easy and people…

I'm not talking about toy projects. I'm talking about real, used in production kernels. One of those embedded ones is used by my employer, for example.

> people like to talk then do the work.

There are tens of millions (I'm being conservative here, not sure I'd claim 100M) of Rust code running in production, at many very large tech companies. I feel like you have an opinion and are trying to fit the facts to it, rather than the other way around.

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