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Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

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Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#51

Post by __s »

zozbot234 wrote: post #40
techwizrd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A redditor pointed out [0] that this is exactly what they would do to sink Rust adoption. Even if you agree with the substance of the argument, the delivery is rude and unhelpful. I hope this resignation is a wake-up call, and much of the onus is on C devs to be more collaborative. 0: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1f3q0l8/one_of_the_r...

Why do C devs even have to be 'collaborative' about Rust modules? The latter would typically ingest C APIs, most likely via bindgen, making C code the "source of truth" about what the API is - because Rust modules are self-contained and C is the only stable ABI that Rust supports. All the type-checking smarts that the video talks about are purely on the Rust side. If a new 'raw' low-level C API is needed to build bet…

Because internally the kernel maintains API compatibility, so if some internal C API changes the change needs to update rest of C code consuming it

If kernel includes Rust, then that C code change could also require applying fixes to Rust code that breaks from that change

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#52

Post by pif »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #50
pif wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the Linux developer community at large requested Rust in the kernel, this is good news.

It is never good news that "nontechnical nonsense" causes a major maintainer to step down, regardless of Rust or not-Rust.

What was heard in the video was both technical and sensible.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#53

Post by pif »

rowanG077 wrote: post #41
pif wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the Linux developer community at large requested Rust in the kernel, this is good news.

Good news for whom? The mental safe space of old time kernel developers? Or good new for users who will continue to have to deal with kernel panics and other memory issues.

> The mental safe space of old time kernel developers?

As long as they are the majority of the kernel developers, their wish is what matters the most.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#54

Post by flohofwoe »

rowanG077 wrote: post #48
hagbard_c wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> users who will continue to have to deal with kernel panics and other memory issues. I have not seen many of those in my close to 32 years of involvement with Linux. In the beginning of the project they did occur 'every now and then' but once Linux got past v1.2 or thereabouts they're about as rare as hen's teeth. If Rust ever becomes widespread enough for kernel developers to pick it up with ease it will be a welco…

I admit it's not often I see a direct panic. But I do see bugs caused by memory issues relatively often. In fact two weeks ago I made a patch for a memory issue in a wifi driver that caused it to drop connections. The long list of CVE is more direct proof though. By far most of them are memory safety issues. Suggesting making a new kernel is just total FUD. This is a multi decade project. It's like saying to a person…

> Suggesting making a new kernel is just total FUD. This is a multi decade project.

Linux started as a hobby project of a single student and just a few years later it was already possible to build a full-blown UNIX desktop system with Linux as kernel.

Why should that not be possible to replicate today? Especially with modern development tooling and a big and motivated language community?

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#55

Post by bobajeff »

superfist wrote: post #16
thinkharderdev wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's caused a lot of trouble so far and for what? The "for what" seems pretty obvious, no? It's the same reason you would use Rust over C in any other project. Memory safety and more modern PL features.

In my opinion, in the case of the Linux kernel, Zig (once it reaches 1.0) would be a much better, more natural, and less painful choice than Rust.

As someone who's tried zig and who enjoys c. I highly doubt it would be any more acceptable for people dedicated to working on c than rust or c++ is.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#56

Post by zozbot234 »

__s wrote: post #51
zozbot234 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do C devs even have to be 'collaborative' about Rust modules? The latter would typically ingest C APIs, most likely via bindgen, making C code the "source of truth" about what the API is - because Rust modules are self-contained and C is the only stable ABI that Rust supports. All the type-checking smarts that the video talks about are purely on the Rust side. If a new 'raw' low-level C API is needed to build bet…

Because internally the kernel maintains API compatibility, so if some internal C API changes the change needs to update rest of C code consuming it If kernel includes Rust, then that C code change could also require applying fixes to Rust code that breaks from that change

That burden would fall on Rust maintainers. If the Rust code goes unmaintained and nobody is around to pick it up, it just gets dropped from Linux releases that rely on the up-to-date C API.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#57

Post by Suzuran »

steveklabnik wrote: post #28
Suzuran wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they're getting at is that it probably would have been better if the Rust people had started their own kernel project, cherry-picked the pieces of Linux they wanted, and then made their own new thing without three decades of obsolete Unix/Linux baggage. This would mean they could spend their time actually writing software and and less time trying to convince a bunch of C programmers that their time is at an end…

Describing it as “the Rust people” as though they are separate from the a Linux project is a rhetorical sleight of hand to imply some sort of outside invasion. These are a Linux kernel people who want to use Rust. Writing a new kernel would be fundamentally different than working on Linux. Also, they are “writing software,” and have been for a long time now. This isn’t just some random arguing on mailing lists, this…

They are separate from the other kernel developers, but not in the negative way you seem to want to assign to me. They aren't an outside invasion, they are a cultural revolution.

They may want to work on Linux but it's clear that the rest of the Linux developer community does not want to allow it, for reasons you are free to interpret as positive or negative as you see fit.

They want to write software, and they are getting somewhere, but they are restricted by the attitudes of the rest of the Linux kernel people fighting against them, so they are sucked into constant flamewars and divisive infighting. All just so they can say what they are working on is "Linux".

At the end, the question must be asked whether or not Linux and its decades of Linux/Unix baggage are worth holding back the progress represented by a kernel that is Rust from top to bottom, and written with safety and security as its top priorities from day zero instead of decades after.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#58

Post by simion314 »

lifty wrote: post #29
simion314 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same opinion here, have all this giant proRust energy and put it behind a few Rust kernels, combining the Rust super powers with latest kernels architectures and have at least one Rust kernel that is not UNIX but something super modern.

There is Redox but adoption and traction is minimal. But these things take time so maybe it will become popular in the future.

I would have expected more then one Rust kernels. It kind of seems that Rust community is missing the ability or the desire to implement a kernel and would like the Linux kernel devs to do the work for them.

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#59

Post by runjake »

steveklabnik wrote: post #7
tyleo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack context. What is the “constant nontechnical nonsense”?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41386939 A comment there has a link to a video of what seems to be the final straw.

For those who don’t or can’t watch the video, or want to know who is saying what, here’s an LWN article describing what happens in that section of video.

https://lwn.net/Articles/978738/

While I disagree with his opinions here, Ted T'so is a long-time Linux kernel dev. He's been around since close to the beginning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Ts%27o

Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

#60

Post by prmoustache »

Suzuran wrote: post #17
stavros wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, maybe that's exactly what should happen. Maybe rust should have never been allowed in the kernel in the first place. Can you clarify these two sentences? You say there should be a memory-safe kernel, and then you say Rust should never have been allowed, which is the opposite.

What they're getting at is that it probably would have been better if the Rust people had started their own kernel project, cherry-picked the pieces of Linux they wanted, and then made their own new thing without three decades of obsolete Unix/Linux baggage. This would mean they could spend their time actually writing software and and less time trying to convince a bunch of C programmers that their time is at an end…

> "the Rust people"

There is no such thing.

There are people developing a complete OS in Rust: https://github.com/flosse/rust-os-comparison

There are people interested in making the Linux kernel more memory safe using Rust. And from what I am observing they aren't interested in a hard fork and are looking for collaboration.

These are different populations.

Contrary to what Theodore Ts'o is ignorantly saying, Rust is not a religion.

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