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Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

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Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#121
post #22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that justify it then?

It shows what the EU action is about. It's not about telegram's supposed crimes, whatever you think they are, because other platforms are full of the same crimes. The difference is that other platforms give EU states access to people's private messages. If you go into the technicalities of what EXACTLY this means, it started with a list of 27 organizations that got blanket access, without judicial oversight (because…

> The difference is that other platforms give EU states access to people's private messages.

Which other platforms are you talking about because both Signal and WhatsApp are e2e encrypted?

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#122
post #7

Can't the EU make their own messaging app?

IIRC France sponsored open source secure messaging platforms There are things like this: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/

Which is still unusable due to the famous "this message can not be decrypted" problem.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK leads in Europe for start up founding… Almost nobody in the UK works for the same company for 50 years and this used to be a thing in the US too. Canada has similar laws/issues. Social mobility is also higher in the UK than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Now I don’t trust these indices tbh, but I trust them more than a nice sounding anecdote. There is a class divide in the U…

That's why Canada also is one of the worst countries in G8 and maybe the most mediocre countries when it comes to actual startup investment and building something new for the world and growing the share of the pie. On top of that, they have a horrible system where nobody can get a doctor. Everybody has to pay double to get a block of butter and housing is so high that you get a whole neighborhood in the US for that p…

>why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor

They are not that poor if you adjust for cost of living and hours worked. If you look at the Wikipedia thing "GDP per working hour (2019 US$ PPP)" some results are:

Denmark 76

USA 74

Canada 57

Spain 56

UK 54

So the pay isn't that much worse per hour. People probably work a little less over here, maybe because we don't have the whole if you don't work you won't get health cover and will be doomed thing.

Also life expectancy is 76 years in the US vs 84 years in Spain. There's more to life than working all hours then croaking.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. Mississippi, the poorest state in America, has 33% higher GDP per capita than Spain does.

You're proving the point of the commenter you're replying to. ;) They're pointing out that "richness" comes from measuring all parts of a person's life. But you immediately revert to talking about only money. It's super ironic.

I'm just pointing out how implausible the claim is that the vast majority of Americans are far worse off than Spaniards. Of course there's more to life than money and GDP/capita is an imperfect measure, but the median American leads a very comfortable life.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#125
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has no connection to who does or doesn't make messaging apps.

Of course it has. They had to wait until Durov went to EU, if it was an EU company they could pressure them immediately and continually.

New messaging apps from inside the EU neither make it easier nor harder to imprison visiting billionaires from outside the bloc who violated local law with the messaging apps they wrote abroad.

In much the same way that the mere existence of Dropbox doesn't preclude the USA from prosecuting Kim Dotcom.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#126
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it has. They had to wait until Durov went to EU, if it was an EU company they could pressure them immediately and continually.

New messaging apps from inside the EU neither make it easier nor harder to imprison visiting billionaires from outside the bloc who violated local law with the messaging apps they wrote abroad. In much the same way that the mere existence of Dropbox doesn't preclude the USA from prosecuting Kim Dotcom.

Messaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform.

If Dotcom was in the US he would be in prison for a decade. It's a huge difference.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#127
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New messaging apps from inside the EU neither make it easier nor harder to imprison visiting billionaires from outside the bloc who violated local law with the messaging apps they wrote abroad. In much the same way that the mere existence of Dropbox doesn't preclude the USA from prosecuting Kim Dotcom.

Messaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform. If Dotcom was in the US he would be in prison for a decade. It's a huge difference.

> Messaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform.

Not when "the platform" is from outside the EU, as Telegram is.

For any question along the lines of "is Telegram in breach of legal obligations?" there's zero connection to what any other messaging app does.

If I set up a local company for a local messaging app and local government leans on me about it, that government doing so makes zero difference to an outside company such as Telegram.

> If Dotcom was in the US he would be in prison for a decade. It's a huge difference.

His home was raided in 2012 and he's lost his last battle against extradition despite some intermediate wins about the raid itself.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#128

The EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriously. None of my products operate in the EU and for good reason. I have no interest in playing the legal games required to support them. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that make this anti-innovation stance so prevalent in the EU.

This is no different than a tor server getting raid because it's hosting CSAM. Telegram CEO was arrested bc he did nothing to control the amount of CSAM in the public channels he was hosting. People on HN are sadly very misinformed on this issue.

https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a6...

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#129
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Messaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform. If Dotcom was in the US he would be in prison for a decade. It's a huge difference.

> Messaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform. Not when "the platform" is from outside the EU, as Telegram is. For any question along the lines of "is Telegram in breach of legal obligations?" there's zero connection to what any other messaging app does. If I set up a local company for a local messaging app and local government leans on…

Indeed, and that's what the EU would be solving with a local platform. They'd be in control of that new local platform, not Telegram.

Re: Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

#130

The EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriously. None of my products operate in the EU and for good reason. I have no interest in playing the legal games required to support them. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that make this anti-innovation stance so prevalent in the EU.

I wouldn’t say anti-innovation. The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses. I can understand that to a lot of Americans a government that tries to protect its people from businesses may not make sense. But most of us in this side of the world cheer on when big companies like Apple have to bend to the EU. Yes, even if it makes starting my own business more difficult. As a European en…

> The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses

This is flagrantly bullshit, unless you're claiming that there's some sort of intellectual and moral difference in European human beings because... reasons...

The EU is as corporatist and protectionist of big business as it's possible to be, it just hides it (poorly) behind a number of veils while throwing moral-sounding legalisms at certain companies and entrepreneurial culture in general. I say this as someone who fully detests some of the rapacious grubbiness of many American tech companies and the silicon valley culture and believes both should be watched carefully. Nonetheless, this placement of the EU on an absurd pédestal because it's "European" needs to burn and die.

>As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly

These sorts of claims are tediously common here on HN from too many people obviously from Europe. For one thing, as a European the only thing you can establish under that rubric is that you're from that part of the Eurasian continent. Nothing more, certainly not morally or emotionally. Being a European menas being part of dozens of cultures that all have their own details, and of which many are no less greedy, self-serving, dishonest and in further extremes racist as hell, than they are in many other parts of the world.

Does your smugly self-indulgent statement somehow imply that American entrepreneurs only care about squeezing every last dollar while crapping as much as possible on their employees and customers? If so, I invite your to open your eyes wider.

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