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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#411
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal has probably the worst UX of any messaging app. It also used to require sharing phone numbers to add contacts, which imo is already a privacy violation. Telegram is fast, responsive, gets frequent updates, has great group chat, tons of animated emojis, works flawlessly on all desktop and mobile platforms, has great support for media, bots, and a great API, allows edits and deleting messages for all users, and…

Telegram consumes up to 50% of battery charge on iOS, with practically zero daily usage, all energy saving settings enabled, and a single followed channel, whether or not I force close the app or reinstall it. I gave up on trying to make it work, merely installing the fucking app ensures my phone is dead in the morning.

That sounds like a bug in your OS. Like, even if the app were doing something crazy, it shouldn’t eat that much memory.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#412
post #154
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

Signal has probably the worst UX of any messaging app. It also used to require sharing phone numbers to add contacts, which imo is already a privacy violation. Telegram is fast, responsive, gets frequent updates, has great group chat, tons of animated emojis, works flawlessly on all desktop and mobile platforms, has great support for media, bots, and a great API, allows edits and deleting messages for all users, and…

> It also used to require sharing phone numbers to add contacts, which imo is already a privacy violation.

https://signal.org/blog/phone-number-privacy-usernames/

Signal doesn't require sharing of phone numbers

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#413
post #141
post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

Polls

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#414
you don't use telegram for encryption

you use it because you can use disposable phone number

nobody ever cares about encryption, it's a false flag

people care about no footprints

that's exactly why it was used to create civil unrest in Iran

https://www.wsj.com/articles/iranians-turn-to-telegram-app-a...

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#415
post #404
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Google cannot be compelled to turn over data they don't actually have on their servers because the users encrypted it before it arrived with keys Google don't control. Signal could modify the application so a remote flag in the Play store binaries could be triggered to exfiltrate data as well. But the key distinction is the normal path of Signal gives them absolutely nothing they can tell anyone other then t…

I think parent's point is, if data appears on sceen, the OS in theory can capture it and send to Google servers as screenshots or OCR'd text.

Yes, that likely is the GP's point, but it's not really relevant to the discussion going on in this thread. Certainly Google could "backdoor" its OS in that way, but they have little motivation to do so (and a lot to lose if they were to do so and were found out). Their recent move to make their location history / timeline product an on-device-only feature because they don't want to have to respond to law enforcement requests for user location data would seem to suggest they really would prefer to not have this sort of data.

At any rate, the discussion going on here is about how Durov has been arrested because Telegram refuses to respond to law enforcement requests, when they do have the ability to do so; and if they were to actually implement E2EE by default (and for group chats), Durov would likely not be in trouble, since Telegram would be unable to provide anything when requested.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will they let _US_ law enforcement see it? No. Will they let Russian? Of course.

Source?

"Telegram is working with Russian intelligence" is a theory that's been floated in quite a few places, included Wired: https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#417

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

> If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. Is it technically possible for them to see it: yes Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so. That seems to be the core issue around Durov being arrested. They probably should implement E2EE for everything. Then they will have a good excuse not to cooperate, because they simply don't have the data.

> Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so.

This is exceptionally naive. Even if he was arrested for not sharing with the French, what about for other countries? Was he arrested for not ever sharing or not sharing enough? Even if he, personally, has never shared, that doesn’t say anything about his employees who have the same access to these systems.

Your data is not private with Telegram. You are trusting Telegram. It is a trust-based app, not a cryptographically secure app.

If you trust telegram, that’s your choice, but just because a person says the right words in interviews doesn’t mean your data is safe.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#418
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, put a geometrician* to do the job of a cryptographer. This is what you get. * I'm being serious, Nikolai Durov's PhD dissertation title was "New Approach to Arakelov Geometry" https://bonndoc.ulb.uni-bonn.de/xmlui/handle/20.500.11811/31... https://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.2030

Advanced math is actually more difficult (in my opinion) than programming languages.

Sure, but cryptography is its own subfield of advanced math (and also a bunch of more CS and UX based implementation challenges like avoiding side channels).

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#419
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, put a geometrician* to do the job of a cryptographer. This is what you get. * I'm being serious, Nikolai Durov's PhD dissertation title was "New Approach to Arakelov Geometry" https://bonndoc.ulb.uni-bonn.de/xmlui/handle/20.500.11811/31... https://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.2030

Advanced math is actually more difficult (in my opinion) than programming languages.

Cryptography is nightmare magic math that cares about the color of the pencil you write it with.

It's not enough you know how to design a cipher that is actually secure, you need to know how to implement it so that the calculator you run it on consumes exactly the right amount of time, and in some cases power, per operation.

Then you need to know how to use the primitives together, their modes of operation, and then you get to business, designing protocols. And 10% of your code is calling the libraries that handle all that stuff above, 90% is key management.

There's a good amount of misuse resistant libraries available, but Nikolai was too proud to not look into how the experts do this, and he failed even with trivial stuff: He went with SHA-1 instead of SHA-256. He didn't implement proper fingerprints. His protocol wasn't IND-CCA secure. He went with weird AES-IGE instead of AES-GCM which is best practice. He used the weird nonces with the FF-DH, instead of going with more robust stuff like x25519.

One thing you learn early in academia, is that expertise is very narrow. I bet he knows a lot about geometry. Maybe even quite a bit about math in general. But it's clear he doesn't know enough to design cryptographic protocols. The cobbler should have stuck to his last.

EDIT, to add, the real work with cryptographic protocols starts with designing everyday things that seem easy on the paper, with cryptographic assurance. Take group management that the server isn't controlling.

For Telegram it's a few boolean flags for admin status and then it's down to writing the code that removes the user from the group and prevents them from fetching group's messages.

For Signal it's a 58 page whitepaper on the design of how that is done properly https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/1416.pdf

This is ultimately what separates the good from the bad, figuring out how to accomplish things with cryptography that first seem almost impossible to do.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#420
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to trust the provider with signal; they are fiercely anti-third party clients, control the network and have released version of the code that are not tracked by sources- in extreme cases we’re aware of years old code being in there (mobile coin for example). Signal evangelicalism needs to halt, you mean the Whisper protocol.

You have to trust the platform with the metadata, but the actual E2E encryption of the messages is something you can personally verify if you cared to.

You can’t know what’s running on your client. Reproducible builds aren’t reproducible, open source was not followed (there was code in the client that was not present in the repos).

So, yes, trust is needed.

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