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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#371

Post by vehementi »

alerighi wrote: post #118
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

> It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud

Unreal. Please share how you came to this world view.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#372

Post by tamimio »

maqp wrote: post #254
tamimio wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing someone's phone number is enough to potentially compromise it. Sophisticated methods can involve zero-click attacks, where just sending you an SMS that you won’t even see can lead to a compromised device. You can check how Tucker got his Signal conversation exposed. Matrix is far better in terms of security than Signal, but Matrix is far behind compared to Telegram features.

You seem to be living on this weird balance of having no threat model. This is what your post implies 1. Signal is bad and insecure because registering user account requires giving a phone number. 2. Matrix is better, it fixes this by registering with emails (although emails also have zero click vulnerabilities) 3. Telegram is better than Matrix, it's more usable (even though it also requires a phone number like Sign…

It isn’t about me picking a lane; I’m just stating things as they are. If you want a feature-rich chat and social app that has a user base too, but you don’t care much about security, go for Telegram. Although some might argue that chats aren’t encrypted, no one known has gotten in trouble because Telegram handed over their data. However, you should never rely on that and don’t trust any cloud-based service in general. Knowing that in advance makes it better so you treat it as you would any social media.

If you want security on the other hand but with fewer features and a smaller user base, go with Matrix. You don’t need an email, by the way; it’s optional (1).

Signal is just in the middle, lacking Telegram's features and Matrix's security, resulting in a weird abomination that I would never recommend to anyone. For a normal non-techie person, I would say go with Telegram, and if you care about security, use Matrix. Recommending Signal might give a false sense of security.

(1) https://ems-docs.element.io/books/element-support/page/creat....

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#373

Post by tamimio »

maqp wrote: post #253
tamimio wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously if your phone is compromised your e2ee chat is not safe. Pretty much, a lot of people think that seeing E2EE means everything is safe, which I believe gives a false sense of security. You can have your phone compromised (especially when I know your phone number, Signal I’m looking at you) or be subject to other means of attacks, exposing everything. I would rather know that this app is not secure so I don…

>You can have your phone compromised (especially when I know your phone number, Signal I’m looking at you) or be subject to other means of attacks, exposing everything. Knowing someone's phone number doesn't automatically let you compromise their device. This is such a ridiculous argument. >I would rather know that this app is not secure so I don’t share anything important, while keeping secure communication to other…

> Knowing someone's phone number doesn't automatically

One way or another, phone numbers are like home addresses in the digital world. Once exposed, it’s just a matter of time and resources dedicated to that. Not to mention, sometimes it’s just needed to cross over the identity, that’s it.

> This is a nirvana fallacy. It's essentially saying

I didn’t say that. As I mentioned in the other comment to you, some or a lot of people just don’t care about security, and as long as this info is known, it should be treated just like any social media.

Great project with TFC, I never heard of it, but it looks interesting. I would definitely give it a try! I have a question though: does your project require a phone number? If not, why? And would you recommend Signal to anyone who is after security, privacy, and anonymity?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#374

Post by [deleted] »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #351
sroerick wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming an adversarial relationship, what sort of metadata could Google capture simply knowing which app was sending the notifications and who was receiving them?

Aren’t notifications enqueued on the server side, implying sender info is inscrutable? I’m curious what mechanism you’d propose to gather any valuable metadata given a sufficient volume of encrypted notifications.

[deleted]

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#375

Post by forgotmypw17 »

icepat wrote: post #141
tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

> What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal?

The first feature that comes to mind for me is being able to use multiple devices. Signal only allows using it with one phone. If you add a second device, the first one stops working. You can use a computer and a phone, but not multiple phones. Telegram supports this without any issues. I still struggle to understand this limitation.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#376

Post by Vegenoid »

331c8c71 wrote: post #13

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

> The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to force us to give up any data.

Or the CEO and owner, staring down the barrel of a very long time in prison, obtains the keys from his employees and provides them to the authorities.

Would he do this? To me, it matters little how much I trust someone and believe in their mental fortitude. I could instead rely on mathematical proofs to keep secrets, which have proven to be far better at it than corporations.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#377

Post by cpach »

sroerick wrote: post #215
chadsix wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you have to reason about how the operator will handle legal threats, you shouldn't bother reasoning about the messenger at all. That's true. You need to run your own platform people. XMPP is plenty simple, plenty powerful, and plenty safe -- and even your metadata is in your control. Just self host. There's no excuse in 2024. Wake up people! Why should the arrest of someone else affect YOU?

Sadly, you still have to pipe all messages through Apple’s notification API if you want notifications on iOS

Metadata? Yes. The plaintext of the messages is not piped through the notification API.

https://www.medianama.com/2023/12/223-signal-push-notificati...

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#379

Post by zagfai »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #142
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's literally the entire point of this article. That is, in this day and age, when people talk about "secure messaging apps" they are usually implying end-to-end encryption, which Telegram most certainly is not for the vast majority of usages.

Also, iMessage is very secure...but then all your stuff is backed up on iCloud servers unless you specifically disable it. That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages. Worse, iPhones immediately start backing up to iCloud when set up for a new user - the only way to keep your network passwords and all manner of other stuff from hitting iCloud servers is to set the phone up with no network con…

iMessage only encrypted messages in RSA 1280, why do you think it is very secure?..

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#380

Post by _flux »

foresto wrote: post #348
ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The admins of Matrix instances sure can be forced to give up data. The metadata is not encrypted, and many rooms are not either.

Metadata is indeed an open issue on Matrix. I believe addressing it is on their to-do list. Many rooms are not encrypted because they are public rooms, where there would be no point in it. Encryption has been the default for quite a while now.

> I believe addressing it is on their to-do list.

I doubt that it's very high on that list, as the problem seems a very hard. Very hard as in that do we even know it's possible? "Metadata" includes a lot of stuff, but basically the originator, the destination and the timing of the messages and participants of a room are all quite difficult to hide in a federated system.

I do believe there is a plan for getting rid of the association of one user in multiple rooms, but that's but a small bit of metadata. I think it is part of the puzzle for supporting changing homeservers.

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