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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#61

Post by al_borland »

kitkat_new wrote: post #36
331c8c71 wrote: post #13

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

I wonder if this is practically relevant at all. Given that users can access their messages without interaction with people at Telegram, automatic aggregation of the cloud data for single end points is in place. In consequence the data can be accessed from a single jurisdiction anyways.

Wouldn’t being forced to give up the password and logging in be a violation of the 5th amendment, at least in the US? I think it’s a mixed bag of rulings right now, but it seems like it would make sense for it to fall that way at the end of the day.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#62

Post by littlestymaar »

cja wrote: post #29
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #6

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

Telegram is the comms system for the Russian military.

As hilarious as it sounds, it's at least partly true.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#63

Post by ahmedbaracat »

mr_mitm wrote: post #50
ahmedbaracat wrote: post #11

Are there any pointers for work to try to make metadata private (I.e encrypted)? I was recently very curious about this question and asked similar ones here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41267877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41270863 On a side note, I was just recommending Telegram as alternative to WhatsApp (but I did mention that we need to enable Private chats for E2E). It is definitely not an idea…

Why didn't you recommend signal?

I am recommending both. The problem is that Signal (which I use along with the other messaging apps) is that it is not feature rich as the other 2 and Signal is not popular so ppl download it just to interact with one person (Me) whereas Telegram has more user base.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#64

Post by lxgr »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Note that the mud puddle test was originally described on Matt's very blog: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-w... :)

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#65

Post by ziofill »

> One of the biggest privacy problems in messaging is the availability of loads of meta-data — essentially data about who uses the service, who they talk to, and when they do that talking. […] the same problem exists with virtually every other social media network and private messenger.

Is this true for Signal too? I thought it wasn’t.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#66

Post by waynecochran »

rhelz wrote: post #46

Fascinating. I might have missed it, but I don't think the author mentioned the possibility of steganography. Just code the encrypted text such that it resembles a normal conversation.

Would you use an image for this? Is there a clever way to do this with text?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#67

Post by on_the_train »

mr_mitm wrote: post #50
ahmedbaracat wrote: post #11

Are there any pointers for work to try to make metadata private (I.e encrypted)? I was recently very curious about this question and asked similar ones here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41267877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41270863 On a side note, I was just recommending Telegram as alternative to WhatsApp (but I did mention that we need to enable Private chats for E2E). It is definitely not an idea…

Why didn't you recommend signal?

Signal lost all credibility with their cryptobro bullshit

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#68

Post by tamimio »

sharpshadow wrote: post #15

Only the secret chat is e2e encrypted. All the other chat options are not. I think calls are also not encrypted since they appear in the normal chat history not in the e2e chat. Obviously if your phone is compromised your e2ee chat is not safe.

> Obviously if your phone is compromised your e2ee chat is not safe.

Pretty much, a lot of people think that seeing E2EE means everything is safe, which I believe gives a false sense of security. You can have your phone compromised (especially when I know your phone number, Signal I’m looking at you) or be subject to other means of attacks, exposing everything. I would rather know that this app is not secure so I don’t share anything important, while keeping secure communication to other means.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#69

Post by kome »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #10

It is weirdly fascinating that this question has to be answered on a semi-regular basis. I am not sure if it is more of an insight into humans, ephemeral nature of software or concern that something major has changed.

Or it's just nerds who are stupid and don't understand what matters in real world security for most people.

The fact that you can create a huge group and channels without sharing your phone and contacts is what made Telegram big.

You couldn't do that on WhatsApp until a few months ago. And it has been on Telegram for years. Why Hong Kong protesters used Telegram and not Whatsapp? read this: https://x.com/Pinboard/status/1474096410383421452

The fact that Telegram is massively used in both Ukraine and Russia shows that its model cannot be ignored.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#70

Post by as1mov »

kitkat_new wrote: post #2

The worst thing is that almost every non-techie who uses Telegram thinks Telegram in general is e2ee.

Anecdotal evidence, so take this with a grain of salt - I work with a bunch of people from Ukraine and almost all of them exclusively use Telegram to keep up with the news and family back home. From talking to them for a while, it's mostly because it's free, has excellent support for sync across multiple devices (including audio, video and other media), has support for proxies to circumvent any kind of blocking, public channels for news updates.

Honestly it would be better if Telegram dropped the facade of having E2EE. It's generally very low on the priority list of most people anyway, as much as it would hurt anyone reading this, but that's the truth. People are not using it for secure messaging, but for a better UX and reliability.

EDIT: Telegram does require a phone number to sign up.

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