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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#111

Post by kitkat_new »

al_borland wrote: post #61
kitkat_new wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is practically relevant at all. Given that users can access their messages without interaction with people at Telegram, automatic aggregation of the cloud data for single end points is in place. In consequence the data can be accessed from a single jurisdiction anyways.

Wouldn’t being forced to give up the password and logging in be a violation of the 5th amendment, at least in the US? I think it’s a mixed bag of rulings right now, but it seems like it would make sense for it to fall that way at the end of the day.

even if you have a password in Telegram as a second factor, Telegram can bypass it anyways; and the user isn't even asked

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#112

Post by nucleardog »

tigeroil wrote: post #77
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Indeed and this is the other thing - even if Telegram don't themselves co-operate with law enforcement, it'd be fairly easy for law enforcement to request access to the phone number from the carrier, then use it to sign into the Telegram account in question and access all of the messages.

You can set a password that’s required to authenticate a new device.

Once that’s set, after the SMS code, then (assuming you don’t have access to an existing logged in device because then you are already in…), you can either reset the password via an email confirmation _or_ you can create a new account under that phone number (with no existing history, contacts, etc).

If you set a password and no recovery email, there is no way for them to get access to your contacts or chat history barring getting them from Telegram themselves.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#113

Post by fsflover »

codethief wrote: post #38

Thanks for the blog post, now I finally have a good resource I can point people to next time they claim Telegramm is secure. > I am not specifically calling out Telegram for this, since the same problem [with metadata] exists with virtually every other social media network and private messenger. Notably, Signal offers a feature called Sealed Sender[0]. While it doesn't solve the metadata problem entirely, it does at…

With Matrix, you can use your own (or trusted) server. Doesn't it solve the problem with the metadata? At least when two trusted servers interact.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#115

Post by EGreg »

lukeschlather wrote: post #84
EGreg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Crypto is really hard. You have to trust that whoever implemented the crypto is smart and diligent, and you have to trust that whoever operates the crypto is smart and diligent, and you have to trust both of those parties. Centralization means that it's very easy to trust that whoever implements and operates the crypto is smart. Do I trust them? I don't know. I trust myself, but I don't think I am independently capab…

It's always very easy to trust as long as you're allowed to be mistaken in your trust. That's literally how people fall for all kinds of things, including wars, advertising, etc. It's much harder to fool all the people all the time, than corrupt some of the people (the ones in charge) all the time:

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/04/02/297839429/...

The mistake Moxie makes (and you do as well, you should really click on the links I posted to understand why)

is that "no one wants to run a server". In fact, an entire industry of professional "hosting companies" exists for Wordpress, Magento, etc. It's a free market of hosting.

You can't trust the software they're hosting, that's true. Which is why we have things like Subresource Integrity on the Web, IPFS, and many other ways to ensure that the thing you're loading is in fact bit-for-bit the same as the thing that was just audited by 3 different agencies, and battle-tested over time.

Think UniSwap. I'd rather trust UniSwap with a million dollars than Binance. I know exactly what UniSwap will do, both because it's been audited and because it's been battle-tested with billions of dollars. No amount of "trust me bro" will make me trust Binance to that extent. The key is "Smart contract factories":

https://community.intercoin.app/t/intercoin-smart-contract-s...

In short, when you decouple the infrastructure layer (people running ethereum nodes) from the app layer (the smart contracts) all of a sudden you can have, for the first time in human history, code you can trust. And again, there is a separation of responsibilities: one group of people runs nodes, another group of people writes smart contracts, another group audits them, another makes front-end interfaces on IPFS, etc. etc. And they all can get paid, permissionlessly and trustlessly.

Look at Internet Computer canisters, for instance. Or the TON network smart contracts. There are may examples besides slow clunky blockchains today.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#116

Post by baxtr »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Would love to see a side-by-side comparison of iMessage, Signal, WhatsApp and Telegram on this.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#117

Post by EGreg »

kasey_junk wrote: post #106
EGreg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> you can install a reproducible build of Telegram and be sure it's end-to-end encrypting things. This is incorrect. The construction for group chats in Telegram is not e2e at all. The construction for dm’s is considered dubious by many cryptographers. It does not matter if you can reproduce a non-e2e encrypted message scheme, you must still trust the servers which you have no visibility on. Trustworthy e2e is table…

The reproducible build of Telegram lets you evaluate the code doing end-to-end encryption. Once you satisfy yourself it's doing this kind of encryption without implementation-level backdoors, then you don't need to worry about servers reading it (except for #5 above).

I didn't claim it encrypted "group chats". I said "things". If you want me to be specific, the "things" are individual 1-1 end-to-end encrypted chats.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#118

Post by alerighi »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another device (two factor authentication, also on WhatsApp now you have this option).

To me it's a good tradeoff, of course I wouldn't use Telegram for anything illegal or suspect.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#119

Post by tamimio »

TheChaplain wrote: post #86
tazu wrote: post #57

Am I the only one who uses Telegram mainly for p2p e2ee audio calls? It's great for that.

I use it for friends, family and partner, videocalls and normal chat. Sure, it may not be on the same level as Signal when it comes to security but it simply is leagues above others in terms of usability, stability and bells&whistles. It's like comparing a Ford Zephyr with a Volvo EX30.

I agree, but I wouldn’t compare Signal to a Zephyr. Classic cars have that charm and magic. I would say Signal is more like a Honda Civic; its users are loud and annoying, and yet it’s mediocre in all categories. :)

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#120

Post by mihaaly »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #6

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

The arrest was about the expected removal of illegal and harmful content in groups, that masses see, so no enryption involved. Did you not read the news - AND the blog - in full?....
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