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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#71
post #65

> One of the biggest privacy problems in messaging is the availability of loads of meta-data — essentially data about who uses the service, who they talk to, and when they do that talking. […] the same problem exists with virtually every other social media network and private messenger. Is this true for Signal too? I thought it wasn’t.

Avoiding any metadata leaks without generating tons of cover traffic (to frustrate timing correlation attacks) is very hard.

Signal does indeed use an architecture (at least for chats with contacts, or optionally everyone when you enable the "sealed sender" option that makes you a bit more prone to receiving spam) where Signal doesn't know who's sending a given message from a given IP address, and only which account it's destined for.

But any entity in position to globally correlate traffic flows into and out of Signal's servers can just make correlations like "whenever Alice, as identified by her phone's IP, sends traffic to Signal, Bob seems to be getting a push notification from Apple or Google, and then his phone connects to Signal, so I think they're talking".

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#72
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why didn't you recommend signal?

Signal lost all credibility with their cryptobro bullshit

Only among people who pay attention to cryptobro bullshit. They remain the gold standard among cryptography engineers.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#73

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

The difference between telegram and others is that in telegram you can type " drugs" to global search and find groups with drug dealers and buyers near you instantly. I don't think his arrest has anything to do with the level of encryption at all.

Personally I find Telegram kind of refreshing in nowadays internet landscape where everything is so sanitized. You can discover all kinds of niches you never knew existed.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#74
post #54

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

Yes: End-to-end encryption is technically quite difficult, but politically and legally feasible (at least currently, at least in most countries). Simply not cooperating with law enforcement is technically moderately difficult, but politically and legally impossible. Between a difficult and an impossible option, the rational decision is to pick the difficult one.

Indeed. Even being charitable and assuming that they're not lying (they say elsewhere that they've shared zero bytes with law enforcement, despite this being demonstrably false), in reality if say, they were to arrest the founder in an EU country (France, perhaps), all they need to do is threaten him with twenty years in prison and I'm sure he'll gladly give up the keys from all the different locations they supposedly have.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#76
post #48

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

You can coherently argue that encryption doesn't matter, but you can't reasonably argue that Telegram is a serious encrypted messaging app (it's not an encrypted messaging app at all for group chats), which is the point of the article. The general attitude among practitioners in the field is: if you have to reason about how the operator will handle legal threats, you shouldn't bother reasoning about the messenger at…

[flagged]

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#77

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Indeed and this is the other thing - even if Telegram don't themselves co-operate with law enforcement, it'd be fairly easy for law enforcement to request access to the phone number from the carrier, then use it to sign into the Telegram account in question and access all of the messages.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#78

Are there any pointers for work to try to make metadata private (I.e encrypted)? I was recently very curious about this question and asked similar ones here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41267877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41270863 On a side note, I was just recommending Telegram as alternative to WhatsApp (but I did mention that we need to enable Private chats for E2E). It is definitely not an idea…

As mentioned in a comment to one of your posts, the GNUnet people have probably gone the furthest in the quest to obfuscate metadata. Unfortunately, to this day no usable messenger application has come out of this, partially because GNUnet has largely been a research project. As for applications in use today that address the metadata problem, have a look at Signal's Sealed Sender feature: https://signal.org/blog/seal…

Since you seem to focus on decentralized protocols, I should add: In practice, while we all like federated and p2p apps for the freedoms & this warm fuzzy feeling they provide us with, by default they tend to have a much greater attack surface when it comes to metadata. This is because, compared to a centralized approach, metadata is openly available to far more parties. As a result, 3-letter agencies often won't even need a warrant to get their hands on the metadata: They can simply run traffic analysis and/or participate in the network themselves.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#79
post #70

The worst thing is that almost every non-techie who uses Telegram thinks Telegram in general is e2ee.

Anecdotal evidence, so take this with a grain of salt - I work with a bunch of people from Ukraine and almost all of them exclusively use Telegram to keep up with the news and family back home. From talking to them for a while, it's mostly because it's free, has excellent support for sync across multiple devices (including audio, video and other media), has support for proxies to circumvent any kind of blocking, publ…

> doesn't require any personal identifier

Do they still not require ID when you buy a SIM card in Ukraine?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#80

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Also the same with Skype "encryption". The data is "encrypted", but you receive the private key from the server upon sign-on... So, just need to change that password temporarily.
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