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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#201

Post by giancarlostoro »

mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

> Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything.

WORSE, you get banned for reporting CSAM to Discord, and I guarantee if you report it to the proper authorities (FBI) they tell them to bug off and get a warrant. Can we please be consistent? If we're going to hold these companies liable for anything, let's be much more consistent. Worse yet, Discord doesnt even have End to End encryption, and the number of child abuse scandals on that platform are insane. People build up communities, where the admins (users, not Discord employees) have perceived power, users (children) want to partake in such things. Its essentially the Roblox issue all over again, devs taking advantage of easily impressionable minors.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#202

Post by mlyle »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #195
mlyle wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not. They use a split-key encryption system so it's not exactly the same as storing the keys where the data is. Yes, again, it all comes down to your threat model. No one can kick down the door and get to the keys. But Telegram can get to all the keys, and thus can be legally expected to . The data is effectively plaintext to Telegram. > Is MTProto 2.0 Cloud Encryption plaintext? No. Just to note: "effectively…

Yeah, I don't doubt that it can be improved. I hope it does because Telegram is not a fringe messenger anymore. There can be improvements made to the infrastructure, so that they don't keep facing these issues again and again.

> Yeah, I don't doubt that it can be improved.

There was no discussion of whether it can be improved. I was just telling you that it meets the established understanding of the term "effectively plaintext," which you were seeming to disagree with.

Have a good rest of your day.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#203

Post by whatsuphotdog »

mpeg wrote: post #49
pathless wrote: post #6

Telegram is genuinely the best general communication platform I have ever used, by far. I really hope he has a good lawyer and this doesn't end up getting essentially murdered for creating it. When you create something that is objectively great, everyone will use it - including bad actors.

I use telegram for some group chats, but I'm not sure why tech-savvy people would like it so much – messages are not end-to-end encrypted which makes it an inferior choice compared to even whatsapp

Why are you assuming tech savy people care primarily about end-to-end encryption?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#204

Post by samastur »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #153
negus wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my comment above about the unencrypted backup. It's basically a UX tradeoff: You can not promote default E2E + no autobackups -- people in mass are not ready to lose their data when losing the device. Nor they are ready to store the key separately in a confidential manner. Nor they are ready to manually transfer the key among different devices. All this UX situation is defined by Moxie (the author of Signal and W…

Backups are encrypted now. Looks like they improved it. I get it. I'm a privacy and free and open source software enthusiast. It's not perfect. It certainly is better than alternatives though. We know for a fact that it pisses off judges and authorities. That's a major sign that its working. You should be concerned when they stop complaining about it, it means they got in.

Judges and authorities complaining is not a proof that encryption is good. Not cooperating with court will have the same effect, which is exactly what Durov is allegedly accused of.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#205

Post by g8oz »

Surely we could have gotten a better source for this story than a sketchy crypto news site.

Here is some coverage from some more reputable sources:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg2kz9kn93o

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/25/telegram-messaging-...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#206

Post by Jerrrrrrry »

speedgoose wrote: post #113
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misinformation that Telegram stores chat data in plaintext on their servers. It stores it encrypted with encryption keys split across the globe. Not perfect, but multiple legal jurisdictions would have to be subpoenad for Telegram to read your non-secret chats.

It could be worth a try to extract the keys of one server with a liquid nitrogen can and a cold boot attack. Or something more advanced that isn’t documented on Wikipedia.

That is so 2009.

RAM can be XOR'd with little latency with hardware acceleration with a key in a slightly - separated secure enclave that will degrade if upset too rapidly, similar to a virtual da Vinci cryptex.

radio/bluetooth/em/sensitive/proximity warning switches to unmount virtualized volumes all in a quasi-state-sanctioned-"contact center" in middle Ukraine.

They are trying their best to prevent the inevitable; the ungovernable, untaxable, uncensorable, un-surveillable commerce and communication platform that will eventually arise from the amalgamation of human's pesky technology and its crossroads with the human condition.

The hate for all things labeled "crypto" (convenient poising the well/doublespeak) was a (partially) government sigh op astro-fabri-exagerated to sway public opinion against anything "crypto" so that an ungovernable, decentralized, general trust-less computation protocol/escrow/rep using zkp+ and hormophic encryption was not able to be realized before the alfabit bois got a chance to mole into the development pipeline and backdoor the inevitable Merchanti Ultimatum; anything less would be a massive national security threat globally.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#207

Post by joelmichael »

lr4444lr wrote: post #178
mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Isn't this what Section 230 was supposed to protect against?

Section 230 does not apply as law in France.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#208

Post by croes »

yunohn wrote: post #191
firesteelrain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apps? I just use it for messaging. I haven’t noticed any major UX issues but I use it for one thing only

Yes, the messaging apps. They suck big-time. By far the worst communication app I’ve ever used. So many bugs… Telegram is indeed the best like others are saying, and WhatsApp is a distant second.

Can you give an example?

Never had any problem with Signal.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#209

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

hdbejs wrote: post #158

Many defend Telegram by likening it to a neutral platform, akin to TCP, claiming it merely provides a service without responsibility for the content. However, this comparison fails because TCP is a simple protocol with no ability to control or monitor content, whereas Telegram holds keys for most data and is capable of content moderation. Unlike E2EE platforms like Signal, which cannot comply with requests without br…

Forcing people to de anonymize speech and enforce state censorship (“moderation”) is not an appropriate baseline and says more about the corruption of France than about Telegram. At this point how are they any different than the CCP? Each wants to paint their censorship and authoritarian tactics as moral and legal and justified.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#210

Post by layer8 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #142
dns_snek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incorrect to say that they weren't cooperating with authorities at all. In the EU, Telegram blocked access to certain channels that the EU deemed to be Russian disinformation, for example.

Really? That’s a really disappointing example of censorship. The state has no business judging the truth.

How do you propose jurisdiction to work without judging the truth?
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