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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#71
I don't know anything about this guy or the basis of these charges but if he is only "guilty" of operating a messaging platform with the option of end-to-end encryption, thus can't let law enforcement tap into private communications when customer's enable that option, how can he be held responsible for the criminal actions of those customers when he isn't even aware of the actions and physically cannot tap into them himself?

This seems like some heavy-handed government coercion.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#72

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Because those services don't get shown reports of CSAM and then turn a blind eye to it and do nothing about it. A person witnessing a crime by itself is not a crime. However, a person witnessing a crime and choosing not to report it is a crime.

> A person witnessing a crime by itself is not a crime. However, a person witnessing a crime and choosing not to report it is a crime.

That’s generally not true, at least in the Anglo legal system.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#73

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Because those services don't get shown reports of CSAM and then turn a blind eye to it and do nothing about it. A person witnessing a crime by itself is not a crime. However, a person witnessing a crime and choosing not to report it is a crime.

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#74
post #6

Telegram is genuinely the best general communication platform I have ever used, by far. I really hope he has a good lawyer and this doesn't end up getting essentially murdered for creating it. When you create something that is objectively great, everyone will use it - including bad actors.

Signal is much better, even if the UX is not quite as good as telegram's.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#75
post #9

I really hope this doesn't become an "encryption bad" cudgel. > The main accusation by EU authorities concerns Telegram’s encrypted messaging services, which were allegedly used to facilitate organised crime. One investigator stated that ‘Telegram has become the number one platform for organised crime over the years’, underlining the perceived link between the platform’s privacy features and criminal activities. It's…

Telegram doesn’t have mandatory e2ee, which puts it in this kind of situation. Having data on crime committing and denying access to it from authorities is a crime itself in most countries.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#76
post #49
post #6

Telegram is genuinely the best general communication platform I have ever used, by far. I really hope he has a good lawyer and this doesn't end up getting essentially murdered for creating it. When you create something that is objectively great, everyone will use it - including bad actors.

I use telegram for some group chats, but I'm not sure why tech-savvy people would like it so much – messages are not end-to-end encrypted which makes it an inferior choice compared to even whatsapp

> which makes it an inferior choice compared to even whatsapp

I'd rather have a good privacy policy with a good enough server-side encryption than some closed-source implementation of E2EE, that we can never audit.

WhatsApp actually disallows you from reverse-engineering the app and looking into the algorithm. That begs the question, what percentage of E2EE is it really? 20%? 50%? 100%? Because there's still no way to confirm their claims of E2EE. All we have is a company with a really good track record in lying publicly, telling you that it's safe.

Looking at WhatsApp's privacy policy, I really wonder why people even support it compared to Telegram: https://privacyspy.org/product/whatsapp/

https://privacyspy.org/product/telegram/

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#77
So let's say I open up a night club. I have to abide the laws and regulations, and make sure things like the following: Minors aren't getting in or being served alcohol, that people aren't selling drugs there, that prostitutes aren't doing business there.

If undercover agents come by, and discover that minors are purchasing alcohol - the business will get fined, and likely banned from selling alcohol for some time.

If I, the owner, continue to ignore authorities and flat out refuse to cooperate, and there are new busts - I would expect to face charges. The joint would likely get shut down, and I could be liable. If things are severe enough, I'll likely be investigated for running a criminal enterprise there.

Obviously there are differences in how things are regulated in the different countries - but in countries where the CEO assumes total responsibility, and the buck stops there - it would make sense that the CEO will get charged with those sort of things, if the company has not done enough to cooperate or moderate their product and users.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#78
France was the country of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, and now you have an autocracy in a semi-democratic vest:

- All protests in support of Palestine banned https://www.politico.eu/article/france-gerald-darmanin-aims-...

- Head coverings banned

- Run a messaging app but the French state finds stuff on it that it disapproves of? You are a Terrorist

It's sad to see this backsliding in Europe.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#79
I'm generally very pro EU, but this anti-encryption stuff they try to pull these last couple of years needs to stop. If it's proven that Pavel Durov is facilitating bad actors with purpose, that's a different story, but creating a secure messaging platform by itself should not constitute a crime.
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