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MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

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Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#191

Post by lazide »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #151
Loughla wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not really. Most professions, once you leave University, do not consult research materials. They have no reason to. And when these folks are in university, the materials are all super easily accessible. It's literally a non-issue for, I would bet, a majority of people. It just doesn't exist in their day to day. Regardless of how that actually impacts the world.

Maybe it's the other way around - or at least a feedback loop? That is, because they're cut off from easy access to research materials, most people don't consult them past graduation -- which ensures there's no expectation or benefit from consulting academic work outside of few specific professions, effectively keeping people dumb and stumbling in the dark relative to what they'd otherwise be.

Nah. Most people barely change channels from whatever they’re watching.

Even if you made it super easy and public access, I doubt 50% or more of the population would know or care.

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#192

Post by jrochkind1 »

mullingitover wrote: post #78

I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. They really are a parasitic racket, and I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. I feel like one basic ballot measure to the effect of "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" might be enough to knock over the first domino, h…

> I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels.

The UC system cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina...

(MIT above is reporting on how it went for them cancelling in 2020. Part of the same wave, I am sure they were talking to each other).

I wonder if UC has a similar article? Looks like not yet in this series: https://sparcopen.org/our-work/big-deal-knowledge-base/unbun...

Would be good to see!

But anyway, UC has done it, and it hasn't destroyed the industry... yet...

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#193

Post by jrochkind1 »

_yb2s wrote: post #177
mullingitover wrote: post #78

I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. They really are a parasitic racket, and I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. I feel like one basic ballot measure to the effect of "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" might be enough to knock over the first domino, h…

California runs big research universities, but nearly all of the research is funded by federal grants. The state has almost no power here because they’re not the ones actually paying for research… but this can easily be done by the granting agencies, and the NIH already requires open access. What the state could do is have the universities stop paying for journal access, but in the short term this would be a disaster…

The University of California system already cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019, with an aim to making all UC research open access. Without a legislative instruction from the state, just UC librarians and administrators and whatever other UC decision-making processes.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina...

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-ca...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00758-x

The fact that you are an academic PI in California (At UC?) and don't know this is interesting! In that I guess, for you at least, it didn't have any deleterious effects to lose access to Elsevier subscriptions (apparently it hasn't been a disaster for researchers!), but I guess also the open access efforts haven't had any obvious positive effects notable to you?

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#195

Post by rickydroll »

hbbio wrote: post #101
mncharity wrote: post #69

Some random bits of context. This conflict goes back a long time. In the early 1990's, with online journals just getting started, MIT was able to insist on principles like "anyone physically in the library has full access, even if they are not otherwise affiliated with MIT". A couple of years later, power shifted, and Elsevier could "our terms, take it or leave it". Then three decades, a human generation, of Elsevier…

> we're today using X Windows instead of CMU's Andrew And in that world, TypeScript would have to find another name! Now, good luck googling Andrew Typescript :) Edit: Found it... https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~AUIS/ljdocs/mkmost/fig4.gif

We could have NeWs, but we got X11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#196

Post by ben_w »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #158
maeil wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the face of it, this sounds like a modern-capitalism take that reduces to "People don't actually have principles, they only care about money". Which is probably correct in 95% of modern business transactions. But surely a skilled negotiator should be able to tell when they're dealing with a party for whom this assumption does not hold. That's one of the main things that being a skilled negotiator is about; the abi…

> modern-capitalism take that reduces to "People don't actually have principles, they only care about money" 1 This is not a modern-capitalism take, maybe just a modern-capitalism phrasing. If you read "money" as common unit of value (which it is), not just dollars in hand specifically, then the statement is effectively true for 99%+ of people; the few for which it doesn't hold are considered insane [0], and we try t…

Money is a token for value, but it is not the only such token, and different kinds of power are not fully fungible.

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#197

Post by TeMPOraL »

lazide wrote: post #191
TeMPOraL wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's the other way around - or at least a feedback loop? That is, because they're cut off from easy access to research materials, most people don't consult them past graduation -- which ensures there's no expectation or benefit from consulting academic work outside of few specific professions, effectively keeping people dumb and stumbling in the dark relative to what they'd otherwise be.

Nah. Most people barely change channels from whatever they’re watching. Even if you made it super easy and public access, I doubt 50% or more of the population would know or care.

> Nah. Most people barely change channels from whatever they’re watching.

They very much do if it's sportsball or political news.

> I doubt 50% or more of the population would know or care.

Don't need 50% of the population. 5% would be more than enough to get the snowball rolling. All that's needed is to normalize that perusing scientific papers is how you learn about things, much like reading books or using Google is normalized.

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#198

Post by _yb2s »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #193
_yb2s wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California runs big research universities, but nearly all of the research is funded by federal grants. The state has almost no power here because they’re not the ones actually paying for research… but this can easily be done by the granting agencies, and the NIH already requires open access. What the state could do is have the universities stop paying for journal access, but in the short term this would be a disaster…

The University of California system already cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019, with an aim to making all UC research open access. Without a legislative instruction from the state, just UC librarians and administrators and whatever other UC decision-making processes. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-ca... https://www.na…

That is in fact what I was referencing when I mentioned that California universities have the power to stop paying for journal access, but not to force researchers publications to be open access.

Your information isn't quite accurate anymore, actually in 2022 Elsevier and UC reached an agreement, and they renewed the subscription. Everyone in the UCs currently has full access to Elsevier articles, even the non open access ones. It was indeed difficult and harmful to researchers during the period when access was lost.

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#199

Post by notfed »

mullingitover wrote: post #78

I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. They really are a parasitic racket, and I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. I feel like one basic ballot measure to the effect of "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" might be enough to knock over the first domino, h…

Interesting how cartels seem to form by profiting off of laws that should not be laws.

Re: MIT leaders describe the experience of not renewing Elsevier contract

#200

Post by jrochkind1 »

_yb2s wrote: post #198
jrochkind1 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of California system already cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019, with an aim to making all UC research open access. Without a legislative instruction from the state, just UC librarians and administrators and whatever other UC decision-making processes. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-ca... https://www.na…

That is in fact what I was referencing when I mentioned that California universities have the power to stop paying for journal access, but not to force researchers publications to be open access. Your information isn't quite accurate anymore, actually in 2022 Elsevier and UC reached an agreement, and they renewed the subscription. Everyone in the UCs currently has full access to Elsevier articles, even the non open a…

Ah, thanks!

I wonder why MIT PI's haven't found the same disastrous effects in the past 4 years... unless the summary at OP doesn't accurately represent actual faculty feelings...

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