X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum • Hacker News Board

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#441

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:10 PM UTC

fargle wrote: post #328

fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

> are employees actually at the level of indentured servants (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties) no, it's actually the polar opposite of that. either party is free to end the relationship at any time. there is essentially what is a long term contract (may not be called a contract), but one which either of the two parties can terminate. it's halfway between being a european style employee and b…

> and i don't think there's anything wrong with it.

except all the legal ways you can't fire someone. Sexism, Racism, Ageism, and maybe Sexual Orientation (may not be Federal) are the big 4 reasons why this can't simply be a social contract. And there's more subtle but not illegal ways you can screw yourself over like Promissary Estoppel, because you can't just hire someone and fire them the first week "for whatever reason" and think that's not open for abuse.

>when you say "click-or-be-fired" it seems shocking. rephrase it into "agree to our new terms going forward, or we will not renew". i have zero problem with that if that was the situation that was originally agreed to.

"I have altered the terms, pray I do not alter it further".

These aren't even labor laws. This can be extortion or retaliation. Neither of which are exactly squeaky clean. Or it could be a simply breaking of contract (e.g. your contract says WFH and now they want to force RTO you). If there's no protection nor reparation on the employer side for breaking a contract they can remake at anytime, it may as well be handcuffs instead.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#442

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:18 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #300

deskr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume Ireland has something like bailiffs in the UK. Delta tried not paying around £3000 owed to a customer. He got a court order and sent bailiffs who went to the airport, closed the checking and said they were going seize the plane to pay for the debt. There's a good short documentary about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s . This link starts at 320 seconds, where the action starts. S…

That was amazing, and we absolutely need this kind of enforcement of court ordered judgments in the USA. It's mind-blowing 1. that Delta fought/ignored to the point where police had to shut down their operations, and 2. how much they even fought back when their counter was already closed down! This corporate mentalities of "We'll do anything except pay what we owe." and "We should always be able to throw more lawyers…

> It's mind-blowing 1. that Delta fought/ignored to the point where police had to shut down their operations, and 2. how much they even fought back when their counter was already closed down!

All over 3000 euro. For an operation as large as an airline they may as well have been arguing over a dropped penny.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#443

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:21 PM UTC

proteal wrote: post #335

ryandrake wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was amazing, and we absolutely need this kind of enforcement of court ordered judgments in the USA. It's mind-blowing 1. that Delta fought/ignored to the point where police had to shut down their operations, and 2. how much they even fought back when their counter was already closed down! This corporate mentalities of "We'll do anything except pay what we owe." and "We should always be able to throw more lawyers…

This is one of those “left hand doesn’t talk to the right” situations. Delta has an arm of the company that only deals in disputes and has another arm that does check in and routine services. I think the manager did a good job here - I highly doubt there is a listed provision for allowances like this, but she paid anyways because she understood what the right thing to do was after confirming everything was legit. Unf…

> companies have to play so defensively because they hold so much power,

You mean they decide to play defensively because they have the power to be a pain in the neck.

>If a company makes an honest mistake, courts will typically side with the less powerful party when possible.

I'm seen way too many malicious "mistakes" punished with a slap on the wrist to really believe this.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#444

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:25 PM UTC

williamvds wrote: post #356

zarzavat wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I agree, the bailiff system should be abolished for personal debts. Except these are High Court bailiffs collecting a commercial debt. They just enforce the powers of the court. Useful in this situation where the executives are in a different country. The High Court can do a lot worse than stopping check in if you don’t comply with its orders.

Sure, no problem with their use against companies. I don't care about the cost to Delta in that video, but I do think this particlar strongarm tactic was way over the line, due to the significant financial impact it could've incurred to innocent bystanders

>I don't care about the cost to Delta in that video

I do. if it was something like 3m euros I'd understand the greed, even if I don't condone it.

3000? They just seem petty. As the article said, this was something a manager could pay out of pocket (and I hope they got reimbursed). It should have been a rounding error already built into their budget that they paid immediately. Delta clearly didn't care of the "innocent bystanders" either, or they were willing to bluff with them as ransom. I've had delays for stupider reasons, but this would at least be a hilarious story to share as a passenger.

It's not like some working class that may not have that much in liquid to pay off.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#445

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:34 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #200

perlgeek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW in Germany, if a company decides to lay off people just to save money, they have to coordinate with some government agency -- and if the company doesn't have financial trouble, those layoffs can be blocked. This happened to Alphabet/Google when they wanted to lay off 6% of their workforce, but were wildly profitable. They couldn't in Germany. (This probably wouldn't have applied in the Twitter case, because Twitt…

I know the subtext of this comment is "European labor laws are good." But it seems you've cited an example of something ironically very anti-labor. This means your government has codified into law the false idea that all human employees are undifferentiated commodities (like cattle). So as an employer, if there's no ability to remove underperformers every year, you've turned employment into a market for lemons, and c…

>This means your government has codified into law the false idea that all human employees are undifferentiated commodities (like cattle). So as an employer

If layoffs only affected "underperformers" you may have a point. laying off 6% of your workforce despite a profitable year betrays the basic idea of "underperforming".

All that aside, if your worst employee is still generating a profit for the company then there's little ground to say they are "underperforming".

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#446

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:36 PM UTC

CrimsonRain wrote: post #376

VonGallifrey wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it seems you've cited an example of something ironically very anti-labor. This means your government has codified into law the false idea that all human employees are undifferentiated commodities (like cattle). So as an employer, if there's no ability to remove underperformers every year No, that is not the case. You can still fire people and you can do so especially if they are underperforming. You just can't…

You say a lot of things which companies can't actually do in reality. Show me examples of firing a few underperformers easily from a company.

you need to define "easily". No, you cannot just one day walk to an employee and say "you're fired, effective now".

But it's not some multi-year ordeal just to let go of one employee in the EU. Maybe in Asia, but different culture, different sentiments.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#447

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:38 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #67

nudgeee wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

I'd rather go through a bigger hoop one time every 10 years or more than the current circus of being let go every 2-3 years and needing to re-interview. The latter just means I spend part of my free time worrying about the next job hop by studying trivia, instead of doing something I actually like to do.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#448

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:42 PM UTC

Timon3 wrote: post #430

ekianjo wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nope. you dont invest the same way in a 6 month contractor that you are not sure to renew down the road as you would for a full time employee. And this goes both ways. The contractor has not much incentive to perform well either.

> And this goes both ways. The contractor has not much incentive to perform well either. Can you explain your thoughts here a bit further? The short term contract can be renewed or replaced with a full time contract. This should provide extra incentive to perform well compared to a full time employee (who doesn't have to worry about either), as long the as the company is a good employer.

>The short term contract can be renewed or replaced with a full time contract.

As someone in games, this is exactly the road to getting exploited. "If I work harder and really wow them with this feature, I could get full time work!" meanwhile, there were plans to not renew anyone at the end of the project and to lay off full time workers. But you get a convinient carrot to lure starry-eyed devs with

Your "as long as the company is a good employer" is doing Atlas levels of lifing here.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#449

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:47 PM UTC

VonGallifrey wrote: post #360

throwaway_9321 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still…

> For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV Picture was a requirement, but that is slowly becoming less popular. Especially in Tech. Leave it off if you don't feel like including a Picture. I stopped including a Picture as well some years ago and it has not harmed (or improved) me yet. Which other personal information is required? I would expect contact informatio…

>Picture was a requirement, but that is slowly becoming less popular. Especially in Tech.

it's barely even necessary in this day and age. Just search up John Doe, Job Title, citysville, State and odds are you'll find some LinkedIn (they probably applied that way anyway). If not, a twitter or open Facebook or more. lot of the newer generations happily give out such private info.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#450

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Aug 18, 2024, 8:49 PM UTC

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #51

it's surprising how often saying nothing works out well.

when given 2 choices, people always forget the 3rd default choice of doing nothing. Despite many philosophies, "Doing Nothing" in a legal sense cannot be taken as a Yes or No. Maybe they simply never saw the message in time (especially something as time sensitive as 24 hours).