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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#351

Post by wkat4242 »

refurb wrote: post #108
fsloth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This works both ways - employee can quit any time too." I think employees have been allowed to quit at any time since the early 20th century in most western countries. Of course there is a probationary period involved, but it's nothing like earlier times when police would possibly come and take you to your place of work, or it was illegal to be unemployed in several jurisdictions up to 20th century (e.g. USSR) etc.…

When I worked in Europe I had to give 3 months notice. If I left before that I had to pay the company the equivalent salary . So let’s say I leave after 1 month of giving notice. I now owe the employer 2 months salary.

It's a month here and generally you use up your holidays during this period so it's generally only 2 weeks or less (we get about a month's worth of holidays per year here)

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#352

Post by wkat4242 »

ekianjo wrote: post #67
nudgeee wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

So what. Getting jobs isn't a problem here, on the contrary.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#353

Post by zarzavat »

williamvds wrote: post #334
deskr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume Ireland has something like bailiffs in the UK. Delta tried not paying around £3000 owed to a customer. He got a court order and sent bailiffs who went to the airport, closed the checking and said they were going seize the plane to pay for the debt. There's a good short documentary about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s . This link starts at 320 seconds, where the action starts. S…

That video is also a great example of just how abusable the bailiff system is. All the "agents" care about is getting the money for their client. For this, they're willing and apparently able to abort at least one flight, and possibly others, costing people on those flights possibly thousands each with rebookings etc, all for £3k. I've only has the displeasure of interacting with a bailiff once, when I was a naive st…

In general I agree, the bailiff system should be abolished for personal debts.

Except these are High Court bailiffs collecting a commercial debt. They just enforce the powers of the court. Useful in this situation where the executives are in a different country. The High Court can do a lot worse than stopping check in if you don’t comply with its orders.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#354

Post by leetrout »

ghaff wrote: post #240
leetrout wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo: unlimited vacation is a scam

It's highly dependent on company (and team) culture. If you can actually take a generous amount of vacation, personal, and sick (if you need it) time, I have no real problem with it. (Then, I haven't moved around a lot--I know some people who move jobs every year or two count on a payout from accrued vacation when they do.) Someone I know who retired from a fairly senior position at Netflix rather liked it and took s…

Minimum / mandatory PTO is the answer.

https://namely.com/blog/minimum-pto-what-is-it-why-you-shoul...

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#355

Post by leetrout »

VincentEvans wrote: post #256
leetrout wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo: unlimited vacation is a scam

It really depends. The company I work for - doesn’t even have a time-keeping system. Taking vacation is a matter of sending a slack or email, or simply verbally letting your manager and team mates know that you won’t be available. So far this year I’ve taken more than 3 weeks at least. I know it’s not a ton, but the point is - that I don’t know the actual exact count, I strongly suspect that nobody really tracks it i…

I replied to the sibling comment, minimum vacation policies are more employee friendly and can offer the same flexibility as "unlimited".

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#356

Post by williamvds »

zarzavat wrote: post #353
williamvds wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That video is also a great example of just how abusable the bailiff system is. All the "agents" care about is getting the money for their client. For this, they're willing and apparently able to abort at least one flight, and possibly others, costing people on those flights possibly thousands each with rebookings etc, all for £3k. I've only has the displeasure of interacting with a bailiff once, when I was a naive st…

In general I agree, the bailiff system should be abolished for personal debts. Except these are High Court bailiffs collecting a commercial debt. They just enforce the powers of the court. Useful in this situation where the executives are in a different country. The High Court can do a lot worse than stopping check in if you don’t comply with its orders.

Sure, no problem with their use against companies.

I don't care about the cost to Delta in that video, but I do think this particlar strongarm tactic was way over the line, due to the significant financial impact it could've incurred to innocent bystanders

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#357

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

YZF wrote: post #293
HelloMcFly wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably, you think we should what? Take the to the streets? Standard of living of food security is still far too high generally for this to seem reasonable for most. Shall we lobby our representatives? This does happen at the state level, and accordingly many states have more pro-worker policies and laws. But change at the federal level is a substantially harder thing to bring.

The way this worked in many places is that workers formed political parties. In France people did and still take to the streets over labour issues. You can also unionize. Or sure, lobby. But if people are happy with the current system then that's also fine. All in all the US has been a success story. Whether there's correlation or causation between that and some of the regulatory and legal environment is hard to say.…

The fact that this is not happening at a grassroots level in the US would suggest that it's not as big a deal to Americans as the Europeans in this thread think it should be.

Speaking only for myself, I've found that when I joined a company whose time-off policies I didn't like (only one so far), I just asked for more time off as part of the deal. The response I got was "sure. It's easier for us to give you more paid time off than more money."

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#358

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

wkat4242 wrote: post #336
withinboredom wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

Yeah the "at will" employment. It's terrible. I could never deal with that. I'm really glad for all our social protections here and it's worth the money. Also socialized healthcare <3

Bear in mind that it works both ways. I can be offered a new job tomorrow and give my current employer immediate notice that I'm never coming back.

Regardless of at-will employment, the vast majority of employers will still give you plenty of warning before you're fired for performance reasons. It's mainly an issue when a company suddenly has large layoffs. And despite what you see in the media, most people are employed by smaller companies that are generally not laying anyone off.

IOW, the negative aspects of at-will employment really don't have much impact on the average techie's life.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#359

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

fsloth wrote: post #56
hippich wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From everything I read, in US, in general, outside of specific list of protected reasons, or a contract specifically describing conditions for contact termination, one can be fired at any time. This works both ways - employee can quit any time too. I wouldn't be surprised musk just applied the same logic worldwide and let lawyers deal with consequences

"This works both ways - employee can quit any time too." I think employees have been allowed to quit at any time since the early 20th century in most western countries. Of course there is a probationary period involved, but it's nothing like earlier times when police would possibly come and take you to your place of work, or it was illegal to be unemployed in several jurisdictions up to 20th century (e.g. USSR) etc.…

> there is a probationary period involved

How is it the same if there's a probationary period?

I can quit my job today with absolutely no consequences beyond not having an income. Can I do the same where you are?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#360

Post by VonGallifrey »

throwaway_9321 wrote: post #139
thor-rodrigues wrote: post #2

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still…

> For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV

Picture was a requirement, but that is slowly becoming less popular. Especially in Tech. Leave it off if you don't feel like including a Picture. I stopped including a Picture as well some years ago and it has not harmed (or improved) me yet.

Which other personal information is required? I would expect contact information and Name. Of course also your Work History and Education. Which personal information do you have a problem with?

> the requirement of a reference letter from your previous employer,

Yes, they are required to give you a reference letter when you leave the company. Honestly, I have never been asked to provide said letter to my new employer in the 15 Years I have worked in Germany.

Most times I don't even have one during the hiring process since I am still working there. So, even if asked about a reference letter, I would just reply that I do not have one. Which, again, has not happened to me yet.

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