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How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

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Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#41

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

IshKebab wrote: post #39
greenavocado wrote: post #4

While technically possible, carrying a 500 kg payload at depths beyond 50 meters is extremely challenging and would typically involve commercial diving teams, saturation diving techniques, or the use of ROVs. Handling a 500 kg payload is more feasible at shallower depths due to lower pressure and shorter decompression requirements. At 30-50m depths, the challenges increase, and more sophisticated equipment (e.g., lif…

Why would you need 500kg of explosives? That's massively overkill.

Indeed, describing a gas pipeline which already wants to explode. You just need to provide the ignition. You do not want to make a second attempt, but something more modest seems like it would have been just as effective.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#42

Post by ofrzeta »

slau wrote: post #22
greenavocado wrote: post #4

While technically possible, carrying a 500 kg payload at depths beyond 50 meters is extremely challenging and would typically involve commercial diving teams, saturation diving techniques, or the use of ROVs. Handling a 500 kg payload is more feasible at shallower depths due to lower pressure and shorter decompression requirements. At 30-50m depths, the challenges increase, and more sophisticated equipment (e.g., lif…

Where does the 500kg figure come from? I don’t see it in the article. I’m also surprised about the 220lb figure mentioned in the article. Assuming a steel twinset, and 4 extra cylinders, we barely get to 60-70kg. Where do the remaining 30-40kg come from?

It was an estimation made up early in the coverage by experts when they didn't even know what kind of explosives were used (it's Octogen).

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#44

Post by voytec »

anovikov wrote: post #40
voytec wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only shows how little trust could be put on fixed infrastructure these days You either introduce redundancy to get rid of single points of failure, or you invest in more reliable means to fulfill given requirements, and keep former main "pipe" as backup.

Doesn't work with gas pipeline, especially not with undersea ones. They scale down terribly poorly, becoming incredibly expensive to build and operate per bcm/y if made thinner/"smaller" to have many of them for redundancy. Also too long, equally well attacked at any point, thus impossible to defend, and impossible to fix once attacked (saltwater getting inside -> pipes are wrecked after a few days, long before they…

My point is that you don't need gas specifically, but energy. Find ways to get energy without dependency on gas if the source is unstable.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#45

Post by dtquad »

konschubert wrote: post #29
anovikov wrote: post #12

Only shows how little trust could be put on fixed infrastructure these days. From now on it has to be built in ways much more resistant to sabotage or attacks. In some ways this is already done: for example, renewable energy facilities are too spread out to be vulnerable, it takes too many and too powerful munitions to wreck a solar or wind power plant vs coal-fired one of comparable output. But gas pipelines are an…

The substations and power lines are pretty vulnerable.

Electricity infrastructure like substations and power lines already have a proven method of redundancy by building more of it than needed. Also Russia's attacks on Ukraine's energy infrastructure shows that substations and power lines can be rapidly rebuilt.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#46

Post by audunw »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #41
IshKebab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need 500kg of explosives? That's massively overkill.

Indeed, describing a gas pipeline which already wants to explode. You just need to provide the ignition. You do not want to make a second attempt, but something more modest seems like it would have been just as effective.

Do the pipelines want to explode? How high is the pressure? There’s no oxygen there so the gas itself won’t explode.

The pipeline must be fairly heavy duty to handle pressure and rough conditions on the seabed. And punching a small whole is probably not enough as it could potentially be fixed?

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#47

Post by WillPostForFood »

greenavocado wrote: post #4

While technically possible, carrying a 500 kg payload at depths beyond 50 meters is extremely challenging and would typically involve commercial diving teams, saturation diving techniques, or the use of ROVs. Handling a 500 kg payload is more feasible at shallower depths due to lower pressure and shorter decompression requirements. At 30-50m depths, the challenges increase, and more sophisticated equipment (e.g., lif…

"Handling a 500 kg payload"

1kg would be enough to breach a pipe. A single determined diver, not necessarily following OSHA rules could do it.

The question I have is, what side is Germany on? They're cutting or suspending military aid, they are indicting Ukrainians, they are blowing up their own energy production making them more dependent on Russian natural gas. WTH?

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-halt-new-ukraine-mil...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-halve-military-...

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#49

Post by K7J6H5G4 »

zarzavat wrote: post #35
K7J6H5G4 wrote: post #19

[flagged]

Those claims were by Hersh who has a …mixed record. I can believe that the US was involved. I strongly doubt that Norway was involved, it would have poisoned relations with the EU.

"I strongly doubt that Norway was involved, it would have poisoned relations with the EU."

So... Maybe that's why they won't admit it?

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#50

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

konschubert wrote: post #29
anovikov wrote: post #12

Only shows how little trust could be put on fixed infrastructure these days. From now on it has to be built in ways much more resistant to sabotage or attacks. In some ways this is already done: for example, renewable energy facilities are too spread out to be vulnerable, it takes too many and too powerful munitions to wreck a solar or wind power plant vs coal-fired one of comparable output. But gas pipelines are an…

The substations and power lines are pretty vulnerable.

A gunman killed power for tens of thousands by shooting electrical infrastructure. A coordinated attack at a lynchpin could do much worse.

  A gunfire attack on two electrical substations in rural North Carolina has left tens of thousands of people without power, schools closed, a curfew imposed, and authorities investigating what they say was an intentional, criminal attack.
  As the outages continued into Monday, questions persisted about who carried out the attack and what could have been their motive in knocking out power to Moore County and its 100,000 residents.
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/05/1140775417/north-carolina-sub...
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