X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum • Hacker News Board

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#341

Post by mind-blight » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #14

fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

One caveat: at will employment doesn't allow a company to fire you for "any" reason. It allows you to be fired for "no" reason.

So, if a company says "we're firing everyone wearing red shirts", then you can potentially contest that. If they fire you without a reason, then it's legal. If you can prove there was actually a reason, and that the reason was illegal, then you can sue them for wrongful termination

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#342

Post by no_wizard » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

fargle wrote: post #328

fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

> are employees actually at the level of indentured servants (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties) no, it's actually the polar opposite of that. either party is free to end the relationship at any time. there is essentially what is a long term contract (may not be called a contract), but one which either of the two parties can terminate. it's halfway between being a european style employee and b…

An interesting facet of a universal healthcare system is how much it could increase competition due to relieving healthcare costs for SMBs and for manufacturing industries like automotive by removing their healthcare obligations.

You actually net increase the ability of people to work for themselves. Healthcare is often cited as one of the primarily reasons people don’t take the step to found their own business.

Not to mention that if you want more equity between employer / employee relationships we need more ways to break up the asymmetric leverage of the relationship and this is a major one that traps folks

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#343

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

makoto12 wrote: post #269

deskr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume Ireland has something like bailiffs in the UK. Delta tried not paying around £3000 owed to a customer. He got a court order and sent bailiffs who went to the airport, closed the checking and said they were going seize the plane to pay for the debt. There's a good short documentary about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s . This link starts at 320 seconds, where the action starts. S…

This is the greatest thing i've ever watched. thank you

I want to say the Daily Show had an episode about someone calling the sheriffs on Bank of America, and them visiting a local branch to enforce a court judgment

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#344

Post by cardiffspaceman » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:41 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #43

Fokamul wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unpaid two weeks of matternity leave" are you nuts? Holy sh.. "vacation longer than three weeks requires the company to stop paying your salary" What? Why is it called vacation then, I cannot comprehend this at all, heh. Don't tell them some EU companies even give unlimited PAID vacation, lol. Never experienced this myself, because I usually have "only" 5 weeks paids vacation, but unlimited HO. Of course in practice…

> are you nuts? There's a new law still in committee: https://www.scstatehouse.gov/billsearch.php?billnumbers=4226... > What? Why is it called vacation then Having more than two weeks off in a year is pretty strange. I worked at a place with "unlimited vacation" once, and you weren't allowed to take off more than two weeks at a time until someone took off two weeks every three weeks ... and that ended that policy. Th…

I worked at a place where there was a gradually-increasing amount per year you could earn, implemented as a fraction of a day per paycheck. I was earning 5 wks a year when I left. I went on a two-week cruise, and with the usual travel buffers it took three weeks. So now mention of two-week vacations makes me a little nervous.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#345

Post by yodsanklai » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:51 PM UTC

nness wrote: post #268

nequo wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you get a US salary? What I’ve heard is that the same company pays much lower wages in the EU than in the US. (With the EU job coming with more non wage amenities like paid vacation, maternity leave, as discussed, and guaranteed healthcare and better public infrastructure.) But I have no personal data point.

levels.fyi contains salary information for comparison. Take a Google L4 - $280K US, $190K UK, $160K DE. But when you include the regulatory protections and benefits, the differences in living standards, etc. the US salary is probably still higher but these salaries are certainly nothing to balk at.

Yes, these numbers seem accurate. In my personal case, I could save a bit more (very roughly 20%?) in the US, but I've concluded that it wasn't worth it.

However, for higher levels (L6+), I think the difference becomes more important. Also, in US tech centers, there are many more opportunities than in Europe. If I were to lose my FAANG job, there would be no way I'd make the same amount of money in a different company in my country. On the other hand, being on a transfer visa in the US can make it hard to switch to a different company too.

In the end, there are pros and cons, and not a definite answer as to where it's best. It depends highly on individual circumstances.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#346

Post by barbazoo » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #312

WrongAssumption wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlimited vacation was actually pioneered in the U.S., and spread from there. Most famously popularized by Netflix in its early days, but popular in law firms before that. https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nq2ph2/i_r...

It's not actually unlimited. In fact, by not providing a fixed amount, and calling it unlimited, it lets managers put peer pressure onto people into taking less vacations than if they'd made a fixed amount!

I’ve experienced unlimited PTO myself and have yet to see any kind of pressure. YMMV obviously but it’s not as universal as people say it is.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#347

Post by alain94040 » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

psychlops wrote: post #229

fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

Indentured servants are not paid for their labor. Americans are paid. The contract is between two parties until a new contract is proposed. If a party declines the new terms (by not clicking) then the past contract becomes void.

There's a bug in your logic. Yes, if a new contract is proposed and a party declines the terms, there is no new contract. But that has no impact on the old contract.

So the old contract is still in effect, as it was not replaced by a new contract. So who terminated the old contract? That's the question here, and the conclusion seems to be that the employer is the one who then fired the employee, the employee did not quit by refusing the new contract.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#348

Post by 1over137 » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 5:01 PM UTC

marpstar wrote: post #324

chii wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually unlimited. In fact, by not providing a fixed amount, and calling it unlimited, it lets managers put peer pressure onto people into taking less vacations than if they'd made a fixed amount!

To add to that: it also can't be "banked" (and thereby paid out after departure). Companies give free PTO because real "paid time off" has to be tracked as a liability on their books; if you haven't "earned" anything and they don't "credit" you, you aren't "owed" you anything when you leave/are terminated.

What does PTO mean here?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#349

Post by pests » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 5:03 PM UTC

xeanotods wrote: post #301

netcan wrote: post #135

Fwiw... As a tendency, Irish labour courts tends to find in favour of employees... but also tend to award relatively small compensation. A headline making award is pretty rare. Judge must not be a Twitter fan.

If it's an illegally biased opinion then presumably it will be overturned on appeal. Otherwise Irish law looks prohibitively business-unfriendly.

So business-unfriendly the tax loophole used to be called the Irish double sandwich.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#350

Post by wisemang » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 5:04 PM UTC

1over137 wrote: post #348

marpstar wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that: it also can't be "banked" (and thereby paid out after departure). Companies give free PTO because real "paid time off" has to be tracked as a liability on their books; if you haven't "earned" anything and they don't "credit" you, you aren't "owed" you anything when you leave/are terminated.

What does PTO mean here?

Personal time off (or maybe sometimes paid time off)