X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum • Hacker News Board

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#21

Post by seper8 » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:20 AM UTC

thih9 wrote: post #19

This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federa…

I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#22

Post by r0ckarong » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:20 AM UTC

hyperman1 wrote: post #18

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

> Musk feels to be above contract law

And he hasn't made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he doesn't give a shit about laws, regulations or conventions?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#23

Post by Fokamul » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #14

fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

"Unpaid two weeks of matternity leave" are you nuts? Holy sh..

"vacation longer than three weeks requires the company to stop paying your salary" What? Why is it called vacation then, I cannot comprehend this at all, heh.

Don't tell them some EU companies even give unlimited PAID vacation, lol. Never experienced this myself, because I usually have "only" 5 weeks paids vacation, but unlimited HO. Of course in practice this means I have main job and also doing self-employed contracts, if work in my main job is done.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#24

Post by baq » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #15

surgical_fire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

Are there any companies who do offer such things, though?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#25

Post by cr1895 » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:22 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #15

surgical_fire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

>but we promise

of course, who's to say that next quarter priorities of management or shareholders shift & those "promises" evaporate?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#26

Post by surgical_fire » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:23 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #15

surgical_fire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

> You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary.

Yes. And I appreciate those labor protections enough that I gladly pay for them.

I could still buy a car, a house, raise a family, have some savings, etc.

The stability and security provided by the labor protections are very much appreciated, a lot more than some extra cash would be.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#27

Post by benreesman » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:23 AM UTC

It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness.

I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#28

Post by dento » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:24 AM UTC

baq wrote: post #24

londons_explore wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

Are there any companies who do offer such things, though?

When working remotely, you're often allowed to pick between employment and b2b contracts, which is essentially the same thing.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#29

Post by XorNot » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:24 AM UTC

seper8 wrote: post #21

thih9 wrote: post #19

This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federa…

I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.

How would you determine if the userbase has grown when by most accounts there has been an explosion in the number of bots while advertising revenue has plummeted by 80%?

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#30

Post by flohofwoe » Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 9:25 AM UTC

seper8 wrote: post #21

thih9 wrote: post #19

This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federa…

I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.

> and the userbase has grown

Most of those 'users' are probably bots though. The bot activity has increased massively since Musk has bought the company (just look at all the like-bots nobody seems to do anything about).