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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#91
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.

Can't wait until the US wakes up and we get an endless 'that's why the startup/innovation culture in the EU sucks and will never be comparable to the US'

Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points.

It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session.

But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics.

When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. Maybe you hiring consultants instead. Or maybe you make do and not hire at all.

No doubt it benefits employees when it comes to job stability. But the cost can be not having those jobs at all. That’s something that has to be considered in the equation.

The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europe I had to give three months notice to quit. Either that or pay the company the equivalent of the salary I made. As an employee it was a penalty I couldn’t afford and thus opportunities at start ups that needed someone now were out of reach. Employee protections had a real cost to me.

It’s pretty clear that Europe as a whole is willing to pay that cost, but it’s a choice.

Nothing wrong with that, but one can’t make that choice then turn around and wonder why your innovative sectors are lagging other countries.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#92

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

I am in Australia. We are somewhere in between, not as strong as Germany or Western EU countries but infinitely better than US. When some of us were laid off by a US tech firm in 2023 they had to give us prior notice for consultation and not cut off our access immediately like they did in US. This allowed us a week to understand our rights and find out the mistakes in their offer. They had to go back and come back with a new better offer as per Australian laws.

In Australia we have codified National Employment Standards which are strictly enforced. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-e...

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#93
post #85
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do t…

Not sure about germany or other countries but in France any contractual change that specifically make the employee position worse without any clear return is essentially voided in "prud'hommes" (the workers/companies justice court) unless they were warned in advance of a negociation meet and brought their representative with them (any company above 10 must have one, and more and more as the company grow). Also, any m…

Oh we don't appear to have that level of protections in Germany. If you accept, for example, a demotion (that one could argue is still in line with the job title and description in your contract) via email, it's difficult to contest later. If you do want to contest it, you have to be quick and do it in writing. For something like reducing salary or other benefits, or changing your job title, those need to be counter signed. Problem is, quite often promotions are (deliberately) not offered with contract amendments, so when you're demoted later, the company can argue you've never legally been promoted in the first place. Sounds like a drag, but it's incredibly useful to describe your role and responsibilities in the employment contract, and to insist on an update once promoted.

As for Musk's lawyers, I'd also love to know how exactly that played out, I can imagine all kinds of scenarios, some hilarious. The most likely to me seems that he wasn't exactly involved in this particular case, or any of these cases. People handle it based on what they think he'd want to do, then pass on the bad news if their plots fail somehow. I'm assuming this might be net positive for him in the end: He got away with the forced, incredibly quick culture change and workforce culling and was able to move forward with his strategy immediately. Delaying problems seems to have worked out for him quite a bit in the past.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#94

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

I would say it's not Musk's view itself that is dangerous, more the fact that this clown has a horde of fans.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty easy, he's obviously a far-right libertarian that rejoices at the riots in England, posts antisemitic tropes on the social network he bought for some dozens of billions of dollars so that he could keep other far-right bigots online for reasons of "free speech", he's a rich, dangerous racist with a deep coffer.

I take a pretty dim view of the stuff you’re alluding to, I hope I was clear that he’s coming off as kind of an asshole from where I’m sitting. It’s got kind of a Tech Kanye vibe and it’s a bad look in 2024. But certainly I’ve posted some stuff online I wish I could take back, I suspect most have, and given the cool stuff around renewable energy and rockets I’m rooting for a good outcome.

I think the biggest difference between you and Musk is that you wish you could take stuff back, and Musk appears not to share that desire. And continues to express them. The rockets and energy stuff will keep going for now no matter who's at the helm.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#96
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days Doesn't seem that hard, tbh

I’m worried that I might have unintentionally created scope for a flame war. I’d like to invite you to clarify why what seems a difficult topic to me seems a simple one to you? From where I’m sitting it seems nuanced and complicated and involving decades of history. It’s eminently possible that I’m missing key information on this, but I can’t glean a “no-brainer” from the above comment.

It seems the vast majority of people have an opinion on musk, thus it can’t be too hold to have an opinion.

This opinion is not nuanced though, because nuance is tricky and requires more effort than simply categorising into a tribal viewpoint

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#97

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

As far as I understand, because employment is at-will and firing is trivial, most employees in the U.S. do not even have a job contract! This was very mind-blowing to me when I took my first U.S. job, where there was no contract (!!), only a 500-word "offer letter". I guess the reasoning is that if there ever were to be any conflict between employee and employer, the conflict would be settled by ending the employment relationship. So there is no point in the employer promising anything (e.g. number of vacation days) since the employer can costlessly renege on any such promise.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#98
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who may not yet know why: US companies must pay out vacation time when employment terminates, meaning unpaid vacation affects liabilities and thus the balance sheet and thus stock price.

>US companies must pay out vacation time when employment terminates Doesn't that depend on the state?

It does; didn't realize that but it makes sense

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty easy, he's obviously a far-right libertarian that rejoices at the riots in England, posts antisemitic tropes on the social network he bought for some dozens of billions of dollars so that he could keep other far-right bigots online for reasons of "free speech", he's a rich, dangerous racist with a deep coffer.

I take a pretty dim view of the stuff you’re alluding to, I hope I was clear that he’s coming off as kind of an asshole from where I’m sitting. It’s got kind of a Tech Kanye vibe and it’s a bad look in 2024. But certainly I’ve posted some stuff online I wish I could take back, I suspect most have, and given the cool stuff around renewable energy and rockets I’m rooting for a good outcome.

> But certainly I’ve posted some stuff online I wish I could take back

He really doesn't look like someone who wants to take anything back. In the past couple years he basically doubled down on everything unpleasant about him, sadly.

How one can go from having interesting opinions on all sorts of scientific topics to being able to entertain Trump's rumblings for an hour is beyond me, but that's what happened.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have "unlimited" vacation here in the states. If you go over three weeks, they still require special paperwork, but they allow it if you are tenured enough. What unlimited means is "as long as your manager is decent, you will maybe get your days off" vs accrued vacation where you may be forced to take vacation to not lose it.

> accrued vacation where you may be forced to take vacation to not lose it. I don't look at it that way. If you have accrued vacation, you "earned" your vacation and they can't take it away from you without compensation. Thus, you are guaranteed your days off. If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days. "Unlimited" vacation just gives all the control to your employer: the r…

> If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days.

This is required in the US. That's the point of unlimited vacation - since it doesn't accrue, the company doesn't have to pay it out when you leave.

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