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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary.

There may be some truth to this, but it's not as stark as some think.

The average cost of a "moderate" house in.. say, Palo Alto is around $3M USD. Those are typically older houses, smaller lots, less desirable neighbourhoods.

Everything is more expensive in such an area. Property tax on that $3M USD house is likely going to be about $20k USD per year, one may as well say an additional $2000/month. That property tax alone is more than most people pay for mortgages in any other place in the US.

I once compared my Ottawa, ON, Canada salary to at typical, comparable one in SV. After looking at the cost of housing, and living, I determined that even though I was making 1/3 the salary? I was taking home more.

Now of course, there is one key difference here. If you don't rent, and do buy, some of that missing "take home" goes into property which does have value. But if you're a renter? If your primary cost (housing) isn't coming back to you in some way?

That SV salary is actually a lot less than you think.

I'd take $100kUSD in Ottawa, over $200kUSD, maybe even $300kUSD in SV, if I wasn't able to buy. EG, forced to rent. And I'd have more money in my pocket in Ottawa, at end of day.

Oh, and that massive property tax certainly isn't recoverable. You're paying some of that whether you rent (because the landlord does), or if you buy.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#32

It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness. I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.

> It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days

Doesn't seem that hard, tbh

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#33
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

[deleted]

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#34

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

€550k is just the compensation. But for such a behaviour, there should be an actual punishment involved.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#35
post #32

It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness. I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.

> It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days Doesn't seem that hard, tbh

I’m worried that I might have unintentionally created scope for a flame war.

I’d like to invite you to clarify why what seems a difficult topic to me seems a simple one to you?

From where I’m sitting it seems nuanced and complicated and involving decades of history.

It’s eminently possible that I’m missing key information on this, but I can’t glean a “no-brainer” from the above comment.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#36

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

Well, to me as a European, this feels like a very high number already.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

> You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Yes. And I appreciate those labor protections enough that I gladly pay for them. I could still buy a car, a house, raise a family, have some savings, etc. The stability and security provided by the labor protections are very much appreciated, a lot more than some extra cash would be.

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#38
post #21
post #19

This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federa…

I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.

And revenue has dropped through the floor:

https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw...

https://mashable.com/article/twitter-x-revenue-falls-x-payme...

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#39

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

Well, to me as a European, this feels like a very high number already.

Wages in America must be truly incredible for this to seem normal. I know so many full time developers on a tenth of that.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

"Unpaid two weeks of matternity leave" are you nuts? Holy sh.. "vacation longer than three weeks requires the company to stop paying your salary" What? Why is it called vacation then, I cannot comprehend this at all, heh. Don't tell them some EU companies even give unlimited PAID vacation, lol. Never experienced this myself, because I usually have "only" 5 weeks paids vacation, but unlimited HO. Of course in practice…

Unlimited paid vacation days are for the employers benefit not employee.
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