Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

fortune.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 474 posts

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#71

Post by hyperliner »

andyferris wrote: post #41
burnished wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer but broadly most forms of employment in the US is considered to be 'at will' and can be terminated by either party at any time for most any reason (excluding membership of a protected class). If you were fired for failing to respond to the yes-or-resign I believe you would be able to claim unemployment because they can't force you to resign and changing the terms of employment to force a resignation is a…

What does "claim unemployment" mean in this context?

Unemployment insurance is a form of insurance in US that pays you if you lose your job due to layoffs and other conditions. It is paid by you so it is not “welfare.” It is managed by each state independently and has some rules. For example, if you lose you job today and “don’t claim” unemployment insurance for two weeks, those two weeks are not paid out to you (this is in Texas). Every week, you must show that you are “actively” looking for a job. You may lose the benefit if you are not, or if a job is available but you decide not to take it. You must report on your efforts to find a job (interviews etc), and must attend some state class about looking for work.

Most states’ unemployment insurance covers up to a maximum benefit per week, and a maximum number of weeks. When I lost my job once, I was paid $325 per week.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#72

Post by smokel »

londons_explore wrote: post #15
surgical_fire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

No, you are not buying that in your salary. The cost of living is shared more evenly in most European countries. You may consider it an insurance, and most insurance policies don't work if there is only one buyer.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#73

Post by fhd2 »

userbinator wrote: post #44
Fokamul wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unpaid two weeks of matternity leave" are you nuts? Holy sh.. "vacation longer than three weeks requires the company to stop paying your salary" What? Why is it called vacation then, I cannot comprehend this at all, heh. Don't tell them some EU companies even give unlimited PAID vacation, lol. Never experienced this myself, because I usually have "only" 5 weeks paids vacation, but unlimited HO. Of course in practice…

The basic principle is --- you work, you get paid. If you're not working, you're not getting paid. Anything additional is a bonus at the discretion of the employer.

That's where I suppose the US and EU truly differ. The US generally goes for the "the market will solve it" approach. If you're a bad employer, nobody wants to work there, the company goes down and the competition wins. It's a beautiful theory IMHO.

The EU approach is sort of the same, but to add regulation on top to steer the market towards specific goals, like having a strong middle class. If, for example, a company doesn't suffer from being nasty to their employees (e.g. because they're a monopolist), regulation will be put in place to create that dynamic. I personally find this approach more feasible, but regulation can be worked around and sometimes backfire, it's not easy to get right.

Back to your point: It comes down to how much you get paid. If you work full time and can't afford vacation or sickness, is that OK?

If you think that's OK, we just disagree I suppose. There's a power imbalance between employers and employees that favours the employers. They have more money, expertise, legal counsel, negotiation power etc. Given the chance, they will pay as little as they can for labour, crush competition etc. I don't believe that's good for a country in the long run.

If you think it's not OK, something has to happen. Paying people more so they can save up money to deal with this is one approach. Assuming the risk of them not working (with paid vacation and sick days) is another one. In the EU, we tend to go down the latter route. I guess you could see it as patronising, but there is beauty in sharing and distributing personal risks. I'm personally fine with both solutions. I'm running a consultancy right now, so I've decided to take the first route, assume and manage my own risks.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#74

Post by pyaamb »

benreesman wrote: post #27

It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness. I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.

High IQ, Low EQ.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#75

Post by pavlov »

fhd2 wrote: post #20
sspiff wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.

The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do t…

> “I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free”

In many European countries unions provide free legal support.

Join the union even if things are good for you now, and you don’t have to go hunting for legal help if one day you feel like your employer isn’t being fair.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#76

Post by consp »

ekianjo wrote: post #67
nudgeee wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

Having short term contracts solved this a long time ago and is mostly a fallacy.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#77

Post by TeMPOraL »

londons_explore wrote: post #15
surgical_fire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and…

> You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary.

FWIW, this is not as simple as labour protections being effectively equivalent to $29k. By being a legal requirement and not a choice, that $29k doesn't register to the market as using disposable income, so competitive pressure doesn't inflate prices of everything to compensate. It's strictly better than having a choice between $97k and $68k + labor protections.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#78

Post by throwaway744678 »

pavlov wrote: post #75
fhd2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do t…

> “I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free” In many European countries unions provide free legal support. Join the union even if things are good for you now, and you don’t have to go hunting for legal help if one day you feel like your employer isn’t being fair.

You don't even need to join to get access to the support.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#79

Post by mschuster91 »

Iulioh wrote: post #52
surgical_fire wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Yes. And I appreciate those labor protections enough that I gladly pay for them. I could still buy a car, a house, raise a family, have some savings, etc. The stability and security provided by the labor protections are very much appreciated, a lot more than some extra cash would be.

And the money is not the only problem, Europe is CHEAP compared to America, it's fascinating. I heard that wges are less than 50% but you end up saving more

> Europe is CHEAP compared to America, it's fascinating.

Yup. Cost of living is insanely low compared to the US, even when just comparing hotbeds like Silicon Valley vs London/Berlin/Munich, with the largest factor being housing. Additionally, healthcare costs are far lower as well - there is no such thing as co-pays, surprise bills and whatnot here (although I do admit some things like dental and vision care aren't covered by insurance, but generally still affordable).

Post reply on HN