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Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

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Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#141

Google’s deal with Apple is def problematic but apart from that I really don’t think it’s a monopoly. Google leadership (according to public info) was in a panic about ChatGPT and rightly so. It was eerily similar to what Google once was at its inception: a no bs way to get better answers to your questions. Luckily for Google, hallucination is a significant issue. Just “GPT it” is already in the modern vernacular. Go…

Generally agree with your points, just not your conclusion that "we should just wait".

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#142
post #86
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There has been nothing in my life so disillusioning as working on a Web app for a company that is more or less required to play Google's game. Have you built any iOS apps?

While true and a fair point, iOS is Apple’s platform in a way that the web is most certainly not Google’s.

Just following this thought then the remedy will be forcing Apple to allow alternative OS and firmware on their devices, allowing consumers to choose what they do with the device hardware they purchased?

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#143

The breakup that needs to happen is ads and search/youtube/etc, everything else would work itself out after that.

Chrome being made by the same company running the websites (search/docs/etc.) is still going to provide bad incentives even if with ads & youtube seperated out the worst ones would be gone.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#144

Yes, everybody is still super upset that Microsoft got hit by antitrust in 2001 and shifted heavily to B2B. We've really missed out on having more fantastic Microsoft software forcibly intertwined in our daily lives. I wish Microsoft owned all of desktop AND mobile computing AND the internet so I was forced to do everything via the fantastic Microsoft Windows! Darn these regulators for trying to allow competitors to…

> and shifted heavily to B2B

Azure, VS code, Github, CoPilot... the emergence of teams...

> I wish Microsoft owned

A large chunk of the engineering stack?

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. Textbook definition: "A market structure characterized by a single seller, selling a unique product in the market." Google Search has competitors and is not even selling its search product.

> Google Search has competitors and is not even selling its search product. The product is not search, it’s ad placements.

Your comment specifically called out their search product. If your argument is that they have a monopoly on ads, I don't believe that's true either.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#146

Google's "search results" are the textbook definition of a monopolized good/service. The whole thing is almost a casino, rigged to the point of absurdity. There has been nothing in my life so disillusioning as working on a Web app for a company that is more or less required to play Google's game.

They're not. Textbook definition: "A market structure characterized by a single seller, selling a unique product in the market." Google Search has competitors and is not even selling its search product.

In this context, "selling" can't just mean "exchanging for money", it has to mean something like "exchanging for a valuable consideration." The valuable consideration that you provide in exchange for using Google is your attention on their ads, and your behavioral and personal data that can be sold.

And I would say that Google can fairly be called a unique product in the market. They are the default search engine on almost all browsers and operating systems, their mobile phone operating system owns 70% of the global market share, and most of these devices give Google's search engine preferential treatment, their name is synonymous with searching on the web, their market share is over 90%, they have more data on their users than probably any other company and can provide more personalized search results than anyone else, their web index is clearly more complete than e.g. Bing's (if you do a domain-restricted search, Google often finds twice as many results as Bing).

It's true that alternatives to Google exist, but Google's overwhelming market dominance makes it imo difficult to argue that they aren't a monopoly in practice.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#147
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Microsoft?

The funny thing is this is going to be benefit Microsoft significantly. Much of what Google did Chrome, Android, etc. was to prevent Microsoft from destroying it like Netscape, Novell, Lotus, Wordperfect, ... It's probably no coincidence that Google's first external CEO Eric Schmidt was the CEO of Novell.

What this means is that we also need antitrust action against Microsoft (particularly since the first one was thwarted by the election of a very pro-big-business administration, that stopped the implementation of fairly sweeping remedies).

It's not exactly a hot take nowadays that all the Big Tech companies are probably overdue for serious antitrust action.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#148
post #98
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the crawling is the easiest part? The AI goldrush has seen dozens of new players gobbling up the entire internet. The hard part is turning that staggering amount of unstructured data into a useful search engine, and in particular fighting off black-hat SEO.

Websites these days are often pretty hostile to crawling aside from the Googlebot. Other crawlers are asked not to by the robots.txt, fully blocked, or put through captchas. https://knuckleheads.club/ https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/technology/how-google-dom...

Good point. Now I think about it Google is actively contributing to that with their Reddit deal which has them blocking all scrapers besides Googlebot, even known legit search engine crawlers like Bingbot.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#149
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking up Google gets worse the longer we wait.

That seems to be in support of the parent's point. So breaking up Google would have resulted in worse outcomes for consumers 10 years ago, but it would be even worse today? Then it wouldn't have made sense to break them up 10 years ago and it would make even less sense today. I'm not claiming there aren't any good reasons to break up Google (I don't know), but this line of argumentation doesn't work as far as I can s…

If your of the opinion that Google should not be broken up at all, ever, then your point is valid.

Re: Google is a monopoly – the fix isn't obvious

#150
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears to me that your two paragraphs contradict each other. If we break up Google and what comes afterwards is worse, then break it up or we'll get worse? Is it worse if we do and worse if we don't? Which "worse" is worse? Or do I misunderstand your point? The whole point of breaking up monopolies is not moral principle. It's so that things get better for customers. If they don't, then what's the justification f…

Going to the dentist hurts more than a cavity. Sometimes a period of acute pain is better than a lifetime of moderate pain.

this guy has a shitty dentist
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