Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#921

Post by danShumway » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:23 PM UTC

gmokki wrote: post #914

bearjaws wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't put a notice saying your prices are increasing due to Apple, it's against the App Store TOS :)

Is it allowed to put a notice that Android and web users are given a 30% discount on the normal prices, which accidentally are only for iOS users. Or just add a clickbait title: "See here to find out if you are eligible to discounted prices!" to a link to the web site. Of course buyer has to be able to disable the 30% discount on the web site, to make it plausible that the normal prices are the ones on iOS. And all b…

> Is it allowed to put a notice that Android and web users are given a 30% discount on the normal prices

No. You are not allowed to provide customers any details about other payment options. Apple has provisions that basically say, "you must not encourage the user to use a different payment option." And Apple can interpret that quite broadly; telling users that another platform has a discount would be treated as a violation.

> "See here to find out if you are eligible to discounted prices!" to a link to the web site.

This would be a violation of Apple's policies.

I sort of understand why people have a hard time grasping this, and I don't think it's through any fault of their own. It's because it's such an obviously anti-consumer, anti-competitive policy that I think normal people assume "it cannot possibly be the policy that Apple has."

There's almost a defense in audacity: Patreon must be lying about its options because, come on, Apple wouldn't seriously ban links, right? No company would be that bold, right?

The policy is so blatant that people assume there must be something they're misunderstanding about it.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#922

Post by pton_xd » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:23 PM UTC

evilduck wrote: post #915

Andrex wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is." I'd love to know where this idea started, because I'm not convinced it's actually based on any kind of real data. If it is, I don't think it's accurate for the past 5+ years. Knowledge of the web is probably flat. And apps and smartphones have peaked in the West. Those are my anecdotes to add, since that seems to be what we're doing. This li…

The idea that Safari is lagging behind is nonsense too. People live in their own fantasies. Press someone to explain what bugs or missing features they're specifically saying are holding the web back and you will probably get a very short list of nonstandard or experimental APIs like WebUSB.

Here's a site that lists a few [0].

I will say that if you've spent any time trying to develop a web-based app it becomes painfully obvious that Apple is doing the absolute bare minimum to support the browser on iOS. PWAs are barely functional.

[0] https://ios404.com

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#923

Post by danShumway » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:27 PM UTC

audunw wrote: post #920

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

I agree that Apple should be pressured to allow alternative modes of payment and/or lower fees in more cases. The duopoly problem you talk about is a real and serious issue. But on this point: > often with the implicit suggestion that Apple "deserves" to be compensated for all of the work they're putting into hosting and curating apps This is a huge misunderstanding about what these fees are actually for. I remember…

Currently the majority of Apple's Safari revenue comes from Google search deals.

Do you believe that if Apple got rid of those deals, it would be justified in applying similar restrictions in Safari to support development of the browser? What incentivizes them to build a functioning browser? Is it feasible to have an Open web while incentivizing the massive amount of work required to build browsers and web APIs?

And if so, what is different about native APIs?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#924

Post by putlake » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:29 PM UTC

audunw wrote: post #920

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

I agree that Apple should be pressured to allow alternative modes of payment and/or lower fees in more cases. The duopoly problem you talk about is a real and serious issue. But on this point: > often with the implicit suggestion that Apple "deserves" to be compensated for all of the work they're putting into hosting and curating apps This is a huge misunderstanding about what these fees are actually for. I remember…

I don't know why you are getting downvoted except that your opinion is unpopular in this thread. It's a legit counterargument though. However, speaking for myself as an N of 1, the reason I buy an iPhone is because of the assurance that it will receive updates -- especially security updates -- for several years. Android doesn't seem to hold that promise.

My last Android phone was an HTC that came out with this promise of delivering Android updates within 15 days -- a promise they did not keep. https://www.engadget.com/2016-08-25-htc-one-a9-android-updat...

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#925

Post by DataDive » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:32 PM UTC

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #532

DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

American-manufactured automobiles bring in the majority of money to drive-thru restaurants too. Should they get a cut of drive-thru restaurants' revenue?

I think the example is a strawman

if American manufactured automobiles were bringing in substantially more money to drive-throughs than Japanese ones - and if American made automobiles had a way to influence where you drive ... I think they would also get a cut from the drive throughs

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#926

Post by meiraleal » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:38 PM UTC

pjerem wrote: post #893

meiraleal wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?

I’m really not defending Apple here. I’ve always been pretty vocal against Apple practices, especially with the App Store policies. But I do think that the situation we are in where any company have to develop an application when the web does it nice enough (and it’s especially true for products such as Patreon) is pretty ridiculous. Of all the companies around, Patreon is one who could easily avoid this in app fee n…

How can you be vocal against App Store and in favor of Web and Apple's effort on that front while Apple/Safari blocks multiple attempts of making the Web a good platform for web Apps.

That's the biggest complain of every web app developer but you are saying that Safari is already great for that while excusing Apple's behavior. Wow.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#927

Post by danShumway » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #804

danShumway wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. Does Apple's refusal to allow apps to tell users about lower prices elsewhere make this claim more likely to be true or less likely to be true? If this is a free choice that consumers are making, why does Apple need to hide it from them? I'm reminded of the same arg…

> Does Apple's refusal to allow apps to tell users about lower prices elsewhere make this claim more likely to be true or less likely to be true? If this is a free choice that consumers are making, why does Apple need to hide it from them? In many markets, Apple does let a dev link users to external payments options. But the dev agreed to basically pay Apple an origination fee to publish an iOS app in their store. Th…

> But the dev agreed to basically pay Apple an origination fee to publish an iOS app in their store.

This is its own can of worms, but doesn't really change much about what I said above.

That might be exactly your point though? That Apple has multiple tools to leverage to make sure that it's impossible to compete with their payment processor if you're building an app? Sometimes I misjudge the intent of a comment.

Apple's restrictions on origination in places like the EU reinforce that Apple does not see these price increases as a tradeoff for quality that customers are willingly going along with, and does believe that if customers were able to be informed about alternative payment methods that already exist that are cheaper, they would take them. In instances where it can't hide alternatives from users, it imposes fees at the point where users are informed about those alternatives: fees that make it impossible for alternatives to be cheaper than Apple's own inflated cost.

Apple's origination fees are a lot less about compensation and a lot more about making sure that on iOS, a less expensive payment option will never be offered. This is not the action of a company that believe that it is adding value to the purchasing experience, it is the action of a company that believes that its purchasing systems would not be chosen by many customers if they were fairly stacked up against existing alternatives.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#928

Post by petre » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

timmattison wrote: post #835

petre wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? Apple & Google Pay is my guess. Which I don't use, just because it's rent seeking and leads to this. I use the websites. Don't want to install bloody apps which request every permission available. My browser has most of those set to denied. Don't even ask for permission, outright deny.

Apple Pay and Google Pay work with an existing card for normal (non-IAP) purchases. I don’t like rent seeking either but in this case it’s the standard CC payment flow. Nothing additional, just better security. What makes a normal CC better?

> What makes a normal CC better?

One doesn't need a phone or battery to use it, just a bank account and the plastic. Google and Apple now want to become Visa. Yes, their system is more secure.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#929

Post by danShumway » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:44 PM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #840

danShumway wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why Patreon isn't hammering this point more if that's the case. This seems to me to be an almost bigger problem than the loss of the per-creation billing. Not that losing per-creation billing is good, but Patreon has been threatening it for a while, and there are ways it could in theory be simulated. But this makes it effectively impossible for creators to go on vacations, take a sabbatical, whatever... with…

> this makes it effectively impossible for creators to go on vacations, take a sabbatical, whatever... without continuing to charge patrons. "I will want to withhold money the moment you go on a break" is not "patronage".

Patreon does not require creators to pause payments when they go on break.

But that should obviously be a choice that is available to creators, for a variety of reasons. They might be treating Patreon more like a subscription service than a donation platform. They might have personal psychological hang-ups (read about why per-creation pricing is so popular with some creators). I would criticize Patreon if it forced creators into that decision. Forcing them out of that decision is also worth critiquing.

It ought to be a creator's choice when they do and don't charge their patrons. It is not Patreon or Apple's job to decide with that level of detail what the relationship between a creator and their fans should look like. And creators who voluntarily decide (for whatever reason) to temporarily pause charging fans are not doing anything wrong.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#930

Post by espadrine » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:47 PM UTC

Andrex wrote: post #876

espadrine wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is. When they are asked to search for a website, they open the app store and search there. If there is no result, they give up.

"The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is." I'd love to know where this idea started, because I'm not convinced it's actually based on any kind of real data. If it is, I don't think it's accurate for the past 5+ years. Knowledge of the web is probably flat. And apps and smartphones have peaked in the West. Those are my anecdotes to add, since that seems to be what we're doing. This li…

Do people search for applications in the App Store or on the Web?

This 2023 study[0] indicates 48% of people discover apps by browsing through the App Stores, compared to 21% that discover them through Web search engines.

Is this a trend?

This 2015 study[1] indicates 40% of people browse for apps in the App Stores, compared to 25% (“1 in 4”) that discover them through Web search engines.

Does this apply to Patreon?

The CEO of Patreon had this to say:[2]

> iOS is actually now the most used platform for communities on Patreon.

[0]: https://www.semrush.com/blog/app-store-optimization/

[1]: https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/marketing-strategies/app-and...

[2]: https://youtu.be/L-LoTH3PzgM?si=F1xraTOFxx8SJN0C&t=61