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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#911

Post by echelon »

fxtentacle wrote: post #778
petre wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe s/he doesn't want to waste their time doing that and instead the company is politely signaling to their users that they're being charged junk fees by continuing to use the iOS app. Which is quite fair and transparent behaviour. Why take on Apple when you can correctly inform your users and push them to give Apple the boot?

In the EU that's what they are doing. In the US, Apple will lock your account for snitching about the Apple tax to your users. See the Epic lawsuit.

> Apple will lock your account for snitching about the Apple tax to your users. See the Epic lawsuit.

Mob boss behavior.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#912

Post by dbenn8 »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

As a small b2c low cost subscription app provider I was initially taken back by the fees of the app/play stores.

However, after looking at the competitive international payment processing and tax management solutions available, the fees started to make a lot more sense. Just the fact that there's no transaction fee on top of the percentage they take makes charging a low monthly fee much more competitive. Once you add in not having to think at all about how much tax to charge in each local, how to report on it, etc, the cost side became much more reasonable.

And the reduced friction and trust concerns for users when they know it's apple managing their financial data instead of a small business is pretty significant as well as others have pointed out.

Would I like to be charged less for all these benefits? OF COURSE. Is the service they provide to smaller businesses with under $1mil in annual revenue a decent ROI? I think it probably is.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#913

Post by eduction »

dcow wrote: post #908
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> It is CLEARLY worth the 30% to most companies, because they keep pumping out single use apps that would be better as a mobile web page. Based on the context given in the OP, this conclusion does not follow and is not fair. 1. Patreon is passing the 30% on to customers by default, or allowing creators to pay for it out of their existing income, so Patreon isn’t making any value judgement at all. They are leaving it…

> Patreon isn’t making any value judgement at all. They are leaving it up to creators and users.

That’s incorrect. They are phasing out two of their three payment options (per creation and first of month) for all creators in order to have the right to operate an app on iOS. That’s a value judgment - Patreon would rather have an app than continue to make independent business judgments. They could have said “well, people can just use their browser on iOS” and it would have meant far fewer changes to their business. The browser only approach is clearly not preferred.

Clearly, having an app with easy payment infra is worth a lot, just as the person you’re replying to suggested.

The question is why the web never developed effective single sign on payment solutions.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#914

Post by gmokki »

bearjaws wrote: post #879
majani wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Patreon has played it perfectly by offering an android app, ios app and a website, and increasing the prices on the ios app to cater for the fees. The next thing should be to provide a clear notice on the ios app that lower prices can be found on the other apps. Then they will be able to objectively tell how many people value the app store's value additions enough to pay extra

You can't put a notice saying your prices are increasing due to Apple, it's against the App Store TOS :)

Is it allowed to put a notice that Android and web users are given a 30% discount on the normal prices, which accidentally are only for iOS users.

Or just add a clickbait title: "See here to find out if you are eligible to discounted prices!" to a link to the web site.

Of course buyer has to be able to disable the 30% discount on the web site, to make it plausible that the normal prices are the ones on iOS. And all billing lines in the invoice always have to include a 30% discount line on Android and web purchases.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#915

Post by evilduck »

Andrex wrote: post #876
espadrine wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is. When they are asked to search for a website, they open the app store and search there. If there is no result, they give up.

"The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is." I'd love to know where this idea started, because I'm not convinced it's actually based on any kind of real data. If it is, I don't think it's accurate for the past 5+ years. Knowledge of the web is probably flat. And apps and smartphones have peaked in the West. Those are my anecdotes to add, since that seems to be what we're doing. This li…

The idea that Safari is lagging behind is nonsense too. People live in their own fantasies. Press someone to explain what bugs or missing features they're specifically saying are holding the web back and you will probably get a very short list of nonstandard or experimental APIs like WebUSB.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#916

Post by numpad0 »

brigadier132 wrote: post #507
xyst wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

Apple doesnt need to be broken up, they just need to be forced to open their devices. No proprietary apis that only they have access to, when you open the phone for the first time you should be able to pick what store to use and they have to allow alternative browsers

I think payment collection needs to be. Any sufficiently large payment infra becomes a vehicle for religious evangelism, and at that point it needs to be removed from private hands.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#917

Post by freedomben »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #765
imzadi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is up to the consumer. The companies should just pull their apps from the Apple marketplace. If something can be a website, just be a website. Why even mess with an app at all? It's not like consumers are clamoring for these apps. Everyone I know hates that you have to have an app for everything these days.

>The companies should just pull their apps from the Apple marketplace. If something can be a website, just be a website. Why even mess with an app at all? the sad reality is that mobile pretty much "solved" an issue corporations struggle with on web to this day. A closed down (i.e. no adblock), centralized (i.e. you can pay to game the platform to highlight your product), scalable system that can be easily and conven…

Yep, and don't forget the deep analytics that they gather as well. That's a huge motivator

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#918

Post by danShumway »

dwaite wrote: post #799
danShumway wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a fun experiment. I'd be interested in Apple allowing Patreon to test that theory by disabling purchases within the app. Is this really about access to a niche user group of users who would never sign up elsewhere? Apple seems to be very invested in forcing Patreon to either not be in the app store at all (and given the limitations of web apps, this is a significant penalty), or offer exclusively Apple pa…

> Apple seems to be very invested in forcing Patreon to either not be in the app store at all Does it? It seems like they are enforcing their developer agreement as written, and likely have been advised they need to enforce it uniformly due to regulatory scrutiny. I believe Google hit this in India where it was ruled they could not start collecting their royalty after several years of non-enforcement across certain c…

> and likely have been advised they need to enforce it uniformly due to regulatory scrutiny.

I'm not certain what the category difference is between Patreon subscriptions and Youtube/Amazon/Spotify subscriptions, all of which don't allow payment through the app.

This is actually something I would really genuinely love Apple to clarify because Patreon's statements on it are surprising; why is Patreon not allowed to stop offering payment options at all in the app. Are they lying about that? Why wouldn't they be allowed to turn it off when other companies clearly are?

> as written,

That being said: if their policy as written has these terms in it, then that doesn't make me feel better about Apple. I would still question why Apple is so scared of consumers being notified about payment options across the board.

An abusive policy designed to give customers less information about their purchases is still abusive even if it's applied uniformly. It still speaks a lot to Apple's priorities and about whether they are genuine when they say that they believe customers prefer their pricing schemes. You don't have to hide things from customers that they prefer.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#919

Post by bangaladore »

KeplerBoy wrote: post #841
bangaladore wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Apple charge itself a platform fee? They are the platform. Unless you are talking about CC fees, which are like 2% compared to the 30% that Apple is extorting you for. Can you explain your comment?

Apple charges you a fee for publishing your App on their Store. What makes you think they wouldn't ask for their cut, if you could publish other content on their marketplaces?

I don't think you read this thread correctly.

At this point, we are talking about Apple not paying fees for its apps on its marketplace.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#920

Post by audunw »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

I agree that Apple should be pressured to allow alternative modes of payment and/or lower fees in more cases. The duopoly problem you talk about is a real and serious issue.

But on this point:

> often with the implicit suggestion that Apple "deserves" to be compensated for all of the work they're putting into hosting and curating apps

This is a huge misunderstanding about what these fees are actually for. I remember a time when major operating system updates cost a fair bit of money. The kind of free significant feature updates we see for phones these days were almost completely unheard of both in the PC and the phone market.

Apple now provides fairly significant feature updates for phones/tablets, going back many years. The App Store business model is what incentivizes this development. Doesn't matter if you don't buy a new phone.. they still make a fair bit of money on you when you use the App Store.

The App Store fees are not to cover hosting/review. It's a way to get a continuous revenue stream from the users of their hardware/software. There is only one realistic alternative to this business model: to use more advertising to extract value out of your users.. which is the path Microsoft and Google seems to be heading in. Neither is ideal. But IMO it's good that there are at least two options with different approaches to this, so we have a bit of choice.

A third alternative would be going back to paying for major OS updates. But I don't think that business model is viable anymore. People expect free updates.

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