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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

It's also an issue of onboarding and discoverability. Creators would see a marked reduction in subscriptions if Patreon was not allowed placement in the app store.

> It's also an issue of onboarding and discoverability.

AppStore is horrendously bad for discoverabilty. It's overrun with scammy ads, fake reviews and fake apps.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? because apple gimps their web browser capabilities & performance to incentivize developers to enter the walled garden

If that were true, we'd see great amazing native-like web apps on Android where none of this perceived gimping is happening.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#813
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In particular Patreon can host things like podcasts so has a media player. The app isn’t just about configuring billing

So Patreon will need to become a reader app like Spotify/Kindle then that can do all this offline but you cannot subscribe or pay in the app.

The problem is that Patreon wouldn't even be able to tell people they can donate to their creators elsewhere due to Apple's assinine anti-steering provisions

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's like pointing to the existence of people who willingly buy a BMW as a justification for forcing everyone to buy a BMW whether they want it or not. products aren't markets. Steam is a market and many games only launch on Steam. That's a sign of a monopoly, be it deserved or not. Still, I'd rather have some aspects investigated because monopolies are historally dangerous.

Steam is both a store and a promotional system, but the fee for the promotion is built into their cut for selling your product in their store. If people are willingly paying this because the promotion is worth it, that's not necessarily a monopoly. And you can tell if they're willingly paying it because they have the option to distribute to the same customers by other viable means, without paying the fee but also wit…

I don't want to too into the weeds of Steam here, so I'll keep this one really brief:

>but the fee for the promotion

I don't think 'putting product on shelf' is 'promotion'. IF that's your only reason and begging the question leads to "becasuse we have 90% of the userbaase", that's a monopoly. Steam is lauded by their audience for only using their local history to recommend games (i.e. they have a realtively simple tagging system they rely on to serve games), so I wouldn't say this is anymore promotion that Google Search is promting "best game 2024" when I search "best game 2024" (in some utopia where the first 3 results were SEO slop).

>If people are willingly paying this because the promotion is worth it, that's not necessarily a monopoly.

I really hope people day understand the difference between "monopoly" and "monopolization", because this seems to always come up in this topic.

"Monopoly" is a very mechanical, neutral term, legally speaking.

>The term “monopoly” is often used to describe instances where there is a single seller of a good in a market...However, despite the general animosity towards monopolies, not all monopolies are illegal. Examples of permissible monopolies include... Monopolies created purely by one seller having a superior product, business acumen, or having good fortune (ex. online search engines, social media sites)

So yes, you can in fact say Steam is a monopoly (in an objective, legal sense), but also argue it not being illegal because "seller has a superiod prouct/business". Monopoly is not a scary word by itself.

In terms of its 90% marketshare and indusry warping effects, it'd be very hard to argue that Steam isn't a monopoly. It'd be easier to argue Google/Apple in mobile aren't monopolies; At least they have each other to shield from their duopoly. Steam has no contender in the US.

"Monopolization" is a scary word.

>In United States antitrust law, monopolization is illegal monopoly behavior. The main categories of prohibited behavior include exclusive dealing, price discrimination, refusing to supply an essential facility, product tying and predatory pricing.

One leads to the other, so I don't blame people for conflating one or another, but it's an important distinction if we're going to start trying to talk about what is/isn't a monopoly, or monopolizing behavior.

----

So, does steam engage in monopolization? Yes, but in much more subtle ways than what Apple/Google are doing. They are very smart about it because they care a lot about consumer feedback, and consumer feedback drives a lot of discussion on social media. But that's a discussion for another inevitable day.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#815
post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Safari is lagging behind all the other browsers regarding modern APIs support. Bugs are not getting patched for years. At the same time other web rendering engines are not allowed o…

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

I still remember when they refused to support forms constraints (there was the JS API, but not the UI designed to show users what they got wrong with their form, so you had to polyfill that specifically for Safari).

Forms are pretty darn important to 99.9% of web apps, this felt like active sabotage.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. I agree, but I also wonder why Patreon needs an iOS app. It's 2024, you don't need an app for everything. See OnlyFans, they're doing fine even without being able to access the proprietary stores.

following this to its logical conclusion you would never install an app if they offered a web version which also means if you get a DM from a creator on pateron you have to load the website instead of easy access to your app drawer. > See OnlyFans i bet they would do even better as a native app. also let's remember that apple goes out of their way to not support PWA in an effort to maintain control https://techcrunch…

I don’t know if that link supports your point?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#817
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the counter-argument to this is that Apple would ultimately be blamed in the minds of consumers for not keeping those devices protected from bad software. To be brash, maybe consumers need to learn how to protect themselves or move to dumb hardware that is impractical to hack. I don't understand this trend of blaming corporations for not being the de facto gatekeeper of security. They should help minimize spam/malwa…

As a technically minded person, I must say I don’t know how to protect myself from secretly malicious apps. A weather app needs my location and network access. It doesn’t need to sell ongoing location tracking information associated with my device identifier and IP addresses to marketing companies.

> It doesn’t need to sell ongoing location tracking information associated with my device identifier and IP addresses to marketing companies.

fortunately, GDPR covers that already. Or CPPA if you reside in California.

But that's not quite what by Malicious. Malice implies intent for bad desires. A company selling your weather tracking data with dubious consent is simply greedy. It very likely wouldn't be in your top 10 list of perpetrators if your phone was hacked, wiped, or stolen.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#818
post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Safari is lagging behind all the other browsers regarding modern APIs support. Bugs are not getting patched for years. At the same time other web rendering engines are not allowed o…

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#819
post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. In other words, every Patreon creator has to be billable through iOS App Store or you get kicked off. Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. This is beyond the pale.

> or disable transactions in the iOS app This should be beyond illegal right? Other apps do this without issues.

Apps in certain categories (ebooks, music, video, news) can choose to not support purchasing at all in apps, or to use in-app purchases.

Outside these categories (eg a email account as a service, group classes) you are expected to always have in app purchasing.

There have been interesting ways people have explored getting around this, but obviously Apple thinks they should be paid what they are contractually obligated.

Having control of distribution means it is easy on Apple’s side to solve disagreements. You only see it brought to lawsuit by the other side (e.g. Epic’s lost case in the US)

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#820

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

Yep. If I were Patreon, I would ditch the iOS app. Apple doesn't deserve a 30% gotcha capitalism mafia extortion fee.
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