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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#801

Post by kwanbix »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

30% is deliriously high. Make it 10% and maybe then we can talk.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#802

Post by account42 »

olyjohn wrote: post #741
cortesoft wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use the web version on my phone instead of most apps, and they work fine.

That's because it's just like IE was back in the day. No web dev is going to build a web app that doesn't work on it, no matter what a turd it is.

Then we should all be thankfull for Safari restraining web "devs".

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#803

Post by tonyhart7 »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

more and more people use mobile phone than ever and less and less people do googling and use "Apps" than bookmarking link to a website

You may not like it but programmer reading news in HN is not common in global scale

plus mobile apps is just value added, same reason you have dekstop app vs webapp

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#804

Post by dwaite »

danShumway wrote: post #501
s1artibartfast wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. >does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? I will. If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. I agree that the high prop…

> If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. Does Apple's refusal to allow apps to tell users about lower prices elsewhere make this claim more likely to be true or less likely to be true? If this is a free choice that consumers are making, why does Apple need to hide it from them? I'm reminded of the same arg…

> Does Apple's refusal to allow apps to tell users about lower prices elsewhere make this claim more likely to be true or less likely to be true? If this is a free choice that consumers are making, why does Apple need to hide it from them?

In many markets, Apple does let a dev link users to external payments options.

But the dev agreed to basically pay Apple an origination fee to publish an iOS app in their store. They require a dev to track purchases made on that external system and pay a (slightly reduced) fee. You agreed to be audited to make sure you are making the proper payments. You may have to pay Apple a cut in more scenarios since the payment system is no longer cleanly isolated.

In-app purchasing is not an expensive credit card processor. It is Apple’s simplest method of collecting their contractually obligated royalties.

So this link is not cheaper if you are following your contract. It is cheaper to buy on your site when those users aren’t coming from the app.

Note that it can still be worth a dev using an external payments options system for other reasons - it is just that a lot of them are dark patterns. Things like variable rates for different people for dating services, no-consent charging for gambling apps, gathering additional tracking information so you have additional ways to monetize the user, making unsubscribing from a service more difficult than Apple makes it, etc.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#805

Post by fmj »

rembicilious wrote: post #761
throwaway48476 wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often milk is a 'loss leader' for supermarkets. They put it as far away from the entrance as possible so you have to walk through the whole store.

Is this really true? Maybe it just makes sense to put high demand refrigerated products in the refrigerated room near the loading dock where the refrigerated trailer is unloaded?

Yeah, I hear people repeat that a lot, but it doesn't entirely align with my experience. A lot of the grocery stores I shop at (mostly Kroger and other national chains,) have a cooler right up front with the most popular dairy/refrigerated items for the people that are just there to pick those up.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#807

Post by johnnyanmac »

riku_iki wrote: post #720
johnnyanmac wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious, do you think there is an ethical way to be a middleman like this? Would making some one-time fee of maybe $1000 be more or less limiting to potential content creators on Patreon? Would a subscription to keep the Patreon page up be better? Ultimately, Patreon isn't fundamentally doing something that even a non-tech user can't whip up for their own website. May need to resort to a payment processor (anoth…

> I am curious, do you think there is an ethical way to be a middleman like this? I think ethics is not applicable here. Corps are for profit enterprises, and seek every chance to bring gain to shareholders. Regulators goal is to support competitive market and healthy business environment, they totally can go after monopolists who abuse network effect and/or put limit on rent amount (say 5-15% from transaction) to su…

>I think ethics is not applicable here. Corps are for profit enterprises, and seek every chance to bring gain to shareholders.

Sure, but the act of charging money for a service isn't inherently unethical. I just want to know where and what lines you draw.

>Regulators goal is to support competitive market and healthy business environment, they totally can go after monopolists who abuse network effect and/or put limit on rent amount (say 5-15% from transaction) to support value creators.

They could, but I'm not optimistic. I think many regulators are out of touch and don't realize how much upkeep digital commerce is saying. They see 30%, assossiate it to the days of brick and mortar which charged much more than that and say "well that's reasonable, Apple needs the money". All while ignoring the different landscape of how much people need to survive these days and how utterly hand over fist the middleman make.

There's just not a lot of empathy these days, and if all these Apple/Google lawsuits as is hasn't changed much, we need that empathy to make change.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#808

Post by troad »

kmeisthax wrote: post #361
dannyobrien wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why Patreon has to drop the per-creation model. Can they not just not offer that on iOS, and continue it on other platforms? (Perhaps with a "convert from susbcription to per-creation" feature online?)

From the article: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. In other words, every Patreon creator has to be billable through iOS App Store or you get kicked off. Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. This is beyond the pale.

> Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

This is truly egregious. "At risk"? This is sheer blackmail.

"Nice store you have here. It'd be a shame if anything... bad were to happen to it. A 30% cut for our legitimate businessmen's club should assure you peace of mind... "

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#809

Post by dwaite »

saratogacx wrote: post #277
derefr wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They still don't support upgrades/upgrade pricing. What would this mean, exactly? You can sell people a demo→full-version permanent unlock as a one-time purchase, same as you can sell DLC in a game. And you can also have subscription tiers, where you get more features out of the higher tiers of subscriptions. And you can, in theory, freely mix these — e.g. charging someone a subscription for the base version, and t…

The model is the "old school" model for software sales. The first version you sell to a user at full price and offer a discount for upgrading (something like 40% off). It lets the customer pick when they feel the value prop is worth the cost and lets you offer a loyalty incentive to the user. Right now the choice is "keep paying for it to keep working" or "fully price for every upgrade".

There are several vendors who do this, for instance 1Password and the Omni Group both do. You have an in-app purchase option that is unlocked by a previous receipt. The challenge is that Apple does not provide tools to help or guidance. They do indeed think e.g. requiring users to buy an upgrade to keep the app working on a new annual iOS version or macOS version is a bad model for users.

Panic even had an upgrade for MAS users when they released their new version of the now defunct Coda outside the MAS (for sandboxing reasons).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#810

Post by bsza »

_han wrote: post #188

This is the most shocking part to me: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon […] disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. Absolutely astounding that removing transactions from the platform could result in being removed.

Easy to fix, give creators an option to make all tiers cost one quadrillion USD on the iOS app (or whatever the upper limit is for in-app purchases). Technically they are complying with Apple's demands while also allowing creators to give Apple the finger.
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