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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#751

Post by johnnyanmac »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #597
brigadier132 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. This has been known to not be true since capitalism was first conceived. I am the biggest free market capitalism proponent and what apple has on their app store is not free market capitalism, its pure rent seeking. Apple users should be able to decide what software and stores run on the device that they own.

I agree, under the assumption that users jailbreak their devices. In my mind Apple has zero obligation to enable it maximum leeway to obstruct it. The people don't want they locked down single function phone, they shouldn't buy one.

>under the assumption that users jailbreak their devices

if that didn't void warranty, I'd accept it as a reasonable workaround. But on top of that I'm pretty sure Apple acively fights with jailbreaking and jailbreakers in particular.

>In my mind Apple has zero obligation to enable it maximum leeway to obstruct it.

They might soon, given DMA. In my mind, Microsoft got dinged for antitrust decades ago and Apple has gone so beyond that line that I'm surprised Europe had to step in before the US. Even Mac OS isn't locked down this hard (helps that it started fundamentally as a BSD fork) so it just tells me this is exploiting its monopoly.

>The people don't want they locked down single function phone, they shouldn't buy one.

opposite argument works as well. An open world does not stop you from staying in the walled garden. If you really don't want to use anything other than the App store, that's fine. You just miss out on a few apps like you have for 16 years with Android stuff that Apple banned.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#752

Post by azinman2 »

Nekorosu wrote: post #750
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Safari is lagging behind all the other browsers regarding modern APIs support. Bugs are not getting patched for years. At the same time other web rendering engines are not allowed o…

Is Chrome on Android complete in terms of modern APIs? If so, do people use it instead of apps on Android?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#753

Post by johnnyanmac »

gretch wrote: post #734
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that's not what the OP meant. "Apple users should be able to decide what software and stores run on the device that they own. " It should be able to be decided while owning it, not before. The point is that a phone that doesn't give the user the same level of control over the software that the manufacturer has simply should not exist. It should not be left to market forces.

Yeah I know that’s not what OP meant. The problem is OP is not fully thinking things through with principles. All these “problems” with walled gardens are well known and consenting adults keep opting into it time and again. I think it’s arrogant to look at a system you aren’t even participating in (can we assume op doesn’t have an iPhone) and say “no those people are doing it wrong”

I don't like this "you consent to the walled garden" approach for a very simple reason: you can do both. Jailbreaking has existed for over a decade but no one was complaining about the walled garden collapsing.

Opening up IOS doesn't mean you need to open up too. The garden isn't going anywher. Take it from an android user that has had choice and google play is still the dominant platform. It's just nice that when/if I need to I can download open source stuff, or games in foreign languages, or just sideload some random apps I tinker with without paying $100 for something I don't plan on releasing to the app store anyway.

These are all very niche uses and I don't understand how my existence inconvinences the garden.

>I think it’s arrogant to look at a system you aren’t even participating in (can we assume op doesn’t have an iPhone) and say “no those people are doing it wrong”

I do it with Russia and North Korea, so call me whatever you want. I'm not just going to dimiss it as "well its their culture" if their culture breaks fundamental principles I was raised on.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#755

Post by johnnyanmac »

gretch wrote: post #738
brigadier132 wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since we live in a democracy with laws where Apple's current arrangement can be voted to be made illegal, we can also decide to force Apple to open their device ecosystem (which may already be illegal).

Yeah we could. But just because we do, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing or the smart thing to do. Once upon a time alcohol was voted illegal and even now marijuana is federally illegal. I personally think it’s a shame when the government takes something interesting and working and makes it illegal. Patreon could easily not be an app on iOS, but they really want that money, so now the government has to make laws on a…

do we really call "give us your subscription money or get banned" an "interesting and working" system? That's pretty much peak antitrust fuel there. This is quite literally what Epic spent years in court fighing over.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#756

Post by johnnyanmac »

harry8 wrote: post #581
TheKarateKid wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how UX only matters to Apple when it doesn't cost them $$

In the days of the ipod every single user of it I encountered had apple's UX wipe their music collection. But maybe that was by design as they decided to call their music shop by the same name as their ipod management software. That is the essence of Apple's UX. Shiny destruction of your property. It remains so. The UX everyone wanted was copying files onto and off the device presented as storage on any computer it w…

Maybe that awful ad of Apple destroying perfectly functional instruments was more accurate than I expected.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#757

Post by johnnyanmac »

derefr wrote: post #351
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@jayd16 - it’s been a few years since I read the Apple Developer Agreement but at that time downloading code and executing it within your app was forbidden by the agreement. A sensible security safeguard IMO.

iSH does it. Not sure how they get away with it, but the dev is around on here so maybe they can explain.

Lot of stuff can skirt by until it doesn't. That's how stuff like Beeper suddenly explodes into a kerfluffle in a matter of days over some dang blue bubbles.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#758

Post by danShumway »

Retric wrote: post #728
danShumway wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not infinite value, just any value versus 0 value. I'm not a fan of Patreon by any means, but it seems pretty silly to me to argue that Patreon offers literally zero value to consumers. Patreon's interface is still better than using Paypal to subscribe to a creator. Patreon still offers me as a user a modicum of privacy, I don't have to give my billing address to every creator that I support. You don't have to like…

> but zero value? Value is the net worth of something. I judge it as negative because IMO if it didn’t exist we’d be better off which isn’t to say it has zero positives just that the negatives outweigh the positives. Your free to disagree, but I think it’s a reasonable argument.

Sure, I suppose.

I do want to re-state that if the majority of Patreon users (not creators but users, subscribers) agreed with you, Patreon already wouldn't exist. There is no conspiracy among creators to keep the platform afloat, they are constantly criticizing it. There are alternatives. Many of the alternatives have their own problems; the actual competitive coverage in this space is very low. But the biggest problem that all of them have is that they have a fraction of the userbase that Patreon has.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, as far as I know you already use alternate services and you already support creators directly through other means. This is not an accusation against you, it is a general encouragement to everyone who dislikes Patreon, to please very literally put their money where their mouth is and go subscribe to creators on other platforms.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#759

Post by talldatethrow »

plorg wrote: post #158
talldatethrow wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I personally would not respect a doctor if he told me I could treat my cancer by eating good.

The government and medical establishment has watched as cancer rates have risen over the last few generations. They're getting better at treating the things yes, as they help us get more over it.

Take mammograms for example. Some European countries have stopped using them all together because even the US admits it raises the likelihood of getting breast cancer. But the US medical system will tell you it's worth increasing your chances of breast cancer from mammograms, because they help you catch breast cancer you may have gotten in other ways earlier, thus making it more treatable.

Not a bet I would take personally. But women are rarely told that. Every women I've told that to is shocked.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#760

Post by Gud »

satellitemx wrote: post #693
Gud wrote: post #335

What a total dick move by Apple. 30% of the money donated to independent creators will now go to Apple, the richest corporation in the world. How is this legal?

According to App Review Guideline: 3.2.1 (vii) Apps may enable individual users to give a monetary gift to another individual without using in-app purchase, provided that (a) the gift is a completely optional choice by the giver, and (b) 100% of the funds go to the receiver of the gift. However, a gift that is connected to or associated at any point in time with receiving digital content or services must use in-app p…

I don’t give a shit what’s written in Apples TOS. If they wrote they were entitled to a 10000% processing fee, would that be OK?

Apple are using their status as software/hardware vendor to force their users to use their App Store. This is obviously illegal. There is no excuse for this.

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