Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#691

Post by dvngnt_ » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:08 AM UTC

reddalo wrote: post #397

kmeisthax wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. In other words, every Patreon creator has to be billable through iOS App Store or you get kicked off. Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. This is beyond the pale.

> Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. I agree, but I also wonder why Patreon needs an iOS app. It's 2024, you don't need an app for everything. See OnlyFans, they're doing fine even without being able to access the proprietary stores.

following this to its logical conclusion you would never install an app if they offered a web version which also means if you get a DM from a creator on pateron you have to load the website instead of easy access to your app drawer.

> See OnlyFans

i bet they would do even better as a native app.

also let's remember that apple goes out of their way to not support PWA in an effort to maintain control https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/15/apple-confirms-its-breakin...

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#692

Post by dvngnt_ » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:10 AM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #245

bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

> As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support How long until YouTube (Google) demand "their" cut of your Patreon income? What will you do then?

pateron can upload an apk and bypass google's play store

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#693

Post by satellitemx » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:13 AM UTC

Gud wrote: post #335

What a total dick move by Apple. 30% of the money donated to independent creators will now go to Apple, the richest corporation in the world. How is this legal?

According to App Review Guideline:

3.2.1 (vii) Apps may enable individual users to give a monetary gift to another individual without using in-app purchase, provided that (a) the gift is a completely optional choice by the giver, and (b) 100% of the funds go to the receiver of the gift. However, a gift that is connected to or associated at any point in time with receiving digital content or services must use in-app purchase.

Many years ago in China where WeChat said Apple was about to collect fees on reader's donation to writer's article (whether paywalled or not). WeChat was taking a cut on such donation. Later WeChat agreed to not taking such cut on donations and the payment not fullfilled by in-app purchase but rather WeChat Pay (as a means of fund transfer).

However, in the case of Patreon, often people are not donating to the creator, they are paying money to gain access to the creators' work (early access, exclusive membership content, etc.), thus Patreon is selling the product produced by creators.

Edit: I want to add that there should be a cut for Apple in this case, but not 30% or 15% (via subscription).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#694

Post by johnnyanmac » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:19 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #607

wkat4242 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always buy on Gog first because they really care about the user. No DRM, the ability to download safe copies in case some lawsuit happens and things get pulled out (e.g. like half the music in GTA San Andreas!). I understand you as a creator prefer steam but I wouldn't obey that, sorry. Also, reinforcing their market position is not in my best interest as a consumer.

I think you may have accidentally misread my post, or maybe I didn't word it carefully enough (in which case I apologize for the confusion). I don't prefer Steam. As a consumer, on principle in most cases I refuse to buy from it. Steam effectively punishes creators for not steering users towards their monopoly, and they have a ton of tools for user lock-in: Steam Input, Steam Workshop, etc... They may not be as egreg…

>Steam effectively punishes creators for not steering users towards their monopoly, and they have a ton of tools for user lock-in: Steam Input, Steam Workshop, etc... They may not be as egregious as Apple, but they are often pretty egregious in their own right.

Main difference is steam is pretty clever about how they do this. They will pull out very fast if customers start to complain, maybe reworking it later on (paid mods -> steam workshop). Meanwhile, devs on the wrong end of the stick can get some of the worst customer service out there behind the curtain. The only way to get steam to respond is to be lucky enough to cause enough customer ire (e.g. Stein's Gate prequel not being approved for Steam. Despite having an ESRB rating... until customers complained).

That's how you get stuff like the Wolfire lawsuit but people chastising Wolfire instead of Valve.

Most other companies don't even pretend to care and just eat the PR hit. That cynicism will build up over the years, so there's much less sympathy for Apple.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#695

Post by xyst » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:20 AM UTC

charrondev wrote: post #653

xyst wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is the case, I don’t understand why Patreon and other sites cannot adopt the same approach. Very easy to remove buy buttons in apps, and redirect users to patreon.com to manage subscriptions for content creators and “per content” payments. iOS and Google apps just used to view content. Patreon is a relatively small company so velocity to complete this effort even amongst multiple teams should be at most a few…

If you do that Apple still takes a 27% commission today even after going through their special entitlement process. https://developer.apple.com/support/storekit-external-entitl... All purchases must still be allowed as in app purchases as well.

so, I give 30% to Apple for the “entitlement” to provide an external link?

No, thanks. I’ll do it the Netflix way. Apps have read only content. No links to manage subs. Creator subscriptions managed strictly on desktop or browser.

Or just do away with iOS App Store distribution until US government gets their shit in gear and break up these monopolies

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#696

Post by m3kw9 » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:24 AM UTC

It’s the same argument for apple, you use our infrastructure host/distrubute/secure/pay, you pay the same.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#697

Post by frumper » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:24 AM UTC

queuebert wrote: post #584

frumper wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that is a good comparison. Our realtor has spent a lot of hours over the past few years showing us homes and writing up more than a few losing bids. It's not constant attention, but so far it's all unpaid.

One is necessary to have a legal transaction, while the other is rent-seeking. People buy cars all the time without agents. We have excellent websites to educate us about car features and locate cars for sale. Realtors keep their racket going by working with each other to get houses sold, while ignoring FSBO homes. In fact, buyer's agents have a conflict of interest in that they get paid more if you pay more for the…

I’ve never had a realtor suggest an offer price or apply the slightest bit of pressure to offer more. Maybe you should find a new realtor.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#698

Post by 6510 » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:25 AM UTC

Everyone is focused on the money but I'm mostly fascinated by the requirement to not mention there are other ways to pay.

There is also adsense forbidding you from talking about adsense earnings on pages with ads.

Youtube demanding advertisement friendly speech.

Platforms taking a percentage of second hand goods bought and sold by users don't want you to use the chat to take the deal outside their walled garden.

It all seems so reasonable!

Of course there are also tons of topics you should never mention on HN, X or Reddit but their users guide offers very limited guidance. It is, shall we say, not fashionable to be specific.

Maybe they are all wrong? Perhaps there is room for a more rigorous industry that specifically instructs us how to behave.

We are "secretly" already at the internet cult level of things.

It gets more funny if you hold that thought and picture how the controllers are constantly hammering us with spam. People are so nice they cant imagine outlawing advertisement for the annoying troll it is.

Take this bit from the adsense TOS:

> A "Sensitive Event" is an unforeseen event or development that creates significant risk to Google's ability to provide high quality, relevant information and ground truth, and reduce insensitive or exploitative content in prominent and monetized features. During a sensitive event, we may take a variety of actions to address these risks.

You see? Telling you straight up how to behave is much easier than to try to make sense from this.

I'm to old of course but for the younglings there is still hope.

https://studentsfororwell.org

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#699

Post by johnnyanmac » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:26 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #555

Terretta wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was an open platform, then Apple couldn't charge any more than Steam which is on an open platform, because nobody would pay that much unless forced to. Wait, Steam charges more? Never mind.

Your "nobody" is doing all the work. Steam distributes to Windows, but you aren't required to use Steam to distribute to Windows, and then many people don't . Adobe isn't paying Valve to distribute their suite. Epic doesn't use it for Fortnite. Random enterprise software developers have nothing to do with it. It's like pointing to the existence of people who willingly buy a BMW as a justification for forcing everyone…

>It's like pointing to the existence of people who willingly buy a BMW as a justification for forcing everyone to buy a BMW whether they want it or not.

products aren't markets. Steam is a market and many games only launch on Steam. That's a sign of a monopoly, be it deserved or not.

Still, I'd rather have some aspects investigated because monopolies are historally dangerous.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#700

Post by Retric » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 2:28 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #670

Retric wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all parties to a transaction provide value to everyone in a transaction. A union, lawyer, real estate agent, etc is optimizing value for one party but not both. As long as one side of a transaction has a monopoly you can end up with “middlemen” favoring the side that picks them, thus why Ticketmaster still exists. Patroon is chosen by content creators not customers as such its goal is creating value for content c…

Does Apple's change do anything at all to help alleviate any of the concerns you have? You have fewer subscriptions options for creators (1st-of-month billing and per-release billing is going away, despite the fact that creators regularly use them to simplify the experience for subscribers). You're going to pay more (I promise you, creators on Patreon are not rich enough to swallow a 30% transaction fee on iOS subscr…

> is providing infinite value

Not infinite value, just any value versus 0 value. IE: infinitely times 0 is less than 0.0000001%. So the same relationship is true if you’re using Firefox to access Patron.

Apple charging fees is definitely a reason to drop Apple, but you personally can’t force creators to drop Patron which is why they can be so toxic.