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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#711

Post by wredue »

heavyset_go wrote: post #656
wredue wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a cluster fuck that would become. I can see it now: needing to have 15 different stores with subscriptions to get apps who all have different deals with different apps for exclusivity. No thanks.

And yet that isn't the case on Android, macOS, Windows, etc. This nightmare scenario only exists in your own mind and you're spooking yourself over it.

Android store is the only one anyone gives a shit about, and even there, to suggest that android is anything but a monopolized store is you living in a land of rainbows and unicorns

We are already seeing it on PC where epic is buying titles. Microsoft it’s trying to make my exact nightmare scenario a reality each passing day.

Just cause you lack imagination of corporate bullshit harming consumers in an unending chain doesn’t mean everyone is unable to see it.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#712

Post by johnnyanmac »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #636
gus_massa wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One important feature is that in the Apple store the consumer is sure that the unsubscribe button works immediately. Not weird tricks to keep you subscribed forever.

This should be a federal law, and if such button does not exist than a email or letter should be a legally mandated fallback. Taking money after cancellation should be treated as thert

Not to be political, but what a timely comment: https://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/new-biden-administrati...

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#713

Post by koyote »

josephg wrote: post #446
kjkjadksj wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apps are now forcing you to use their website skin even though its damn easy to offer a mobile web alternative that doesn't squander ever precious local storage.

Which apps? The only one I know about is Reddit, where the web version is crippled compared to the app. (You can’t read all the comments). But old.reddit.com works fine on mobile - even if you have to constantly zoom in and out.

Tiktok and Instagram don't force you to, but remind you that you really should be using the App.

There was an Australian low-cost airline (Bonza) that only allowed bookings via their app. It went under very quickly (I wonder why...).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#714

Post by johnnyanmac »

riku_iki wrote: post #470
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. they are both rent seeking middle-men who abuse network effect, its just one has more power than another.

I am curious, do you think there is an ethical way to be a middleman like this? Would making some one-time fee of maybe $1000 be more or less limiting to potential content creators on Patreon? Would a subscription to keep the Patreon page up be better?

Ultimately, Patreon isn't fundamentally doing something that even a non-tech user can't whip up for their own website. May need to resort to a payment processor (another middleman) to get donations going, but it's possible. I can take my ball home.

Current factors on IOS make it impossible to do the same on IOS, even post DMA they want to rent-seek outside of the App Store. I think that's what makes IOS worse in my eyes.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#715

Post by johnnyanmac »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #577
Waterluvian wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this view conclude that there should never be regulation of any sort? Or is there possibly a level of “fairness” that’s evident to the average person?

Regulation is itself neither objective nor fair. Additionally, regulation is not immune from market pressures as the legal environments and incentives they create are also subject to competition. No nation-state has a monopoly on hospitable business environments. Fairness at its most objective is merely a process. It's not and should not be proselytized as a guarantee of equal outcomes irrespective of circumstances.…

>Fairness at its most objective is merely a process.

so basically, you don't care about moral fairness and are fine letting monopolies rule markets and societies. The extreme side of "equal opportunity".

I won't make a moral argument here, but merely a logistical one: country governments have a lot of incentive to not let this happen. For the sake of technological progress, for the sake of ensuring the non-upper class economy (aka, taxable income that won't play Matrix with them in terms of evasion) is healthy enough, and for the sake of minimizing risks of a hostile takeover (be it from the monopoly or foreign powers).

So a truly "free market" only works in a vacuum with benevolant dictators and a united world government. That may take a while.

>The "average person" does not exist

hence why we have multiple fields dedicated to approximating such a person. Because averages are still valuable for many things. From government policy, to targeted marketing, to identifying societal biases.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#716

Post by stevenhuang »

roenxi wrote: post #633
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looking at it that way, sure. It seems obvious. If a local distributor picks up a local product, and then a national distributor buys from the local distributor, it's pretty obvious that the national distributor brings more value. That isn't obvious at all. In both cases the distributor's margin will reflect how much competition they have. If there is only one distributor, their margin will be large. If there are a…

> The notion that Google and Apple are in competition with one another in this context is false, because to distribute to Android customers you need Google and to distribute to iOS customers you need Apple. It is still competition even in this context, it just happens on a slightly slower cadence. The Apple customers, by and large, are paying good money to avoid Google's app store because they believe Apple is a bett…

You are wildly overthinking it. The average apple customer spends money on the apple app store because there is no alternative. Simple as.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#717

Post by johnnyanmac »

iudqnolq wrote: post #498
cyberax wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I downloaded the Patreon app to listen to podcasts. Regardless of who is to blame from my perspective their imperfect app provides a better user experience than Firefox or Chrome on my Android phone.

>Regardless of who is to blame

It's Apple on IOS for not even being able to get a proper web app off the ground.

For android, there's probably no primary blame here. But there is financial incentive to produce an app over a mobile website when given a choice.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#718

Post by wkat4242 »

charrondev wrote: post #640
wkat4242 wrote: post #591

Why does patreon really have to be an app though? It works just fine as a mobile site and it doesn't do anything complex that would require it to be an app. And this goes for most services with an app, the main reason they have apps (and try to force their users to use those) is to collect more data from the user as an app has more opportunity to do this than a mobile site. Of course for a supposedly 'noble cause' ap…

I’ll note their app actually sucks at least for reading serial fiction from a few people I subscribe to. What does require an app though is sending notifications. As a result I have their app just to receive notifications of new chapter releases, then go read the post on the website. If Apple stopped locking this functionality into applications then something like Patreon could just be a website that you pin on your…

Notifications don't require an app. I get many website notifications from my browser app. At least on android.

Since Apple now purportedly supports PWA this should also work.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#719

Post by cortesoft »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #665
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

When a mobile web page uses apple pay, does it also give 30% to apple? If not, what’s the difference between it and an app?

No, it does not. You can buy anything from anywhere on the web.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#720

Post by riku_iki »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #714
riku_iki wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. they are both rent seeking middle-men who abuse network effect, its just one has more power than another.

I am curious, do you think there is an ethical way to be a middleman like this? Would making some one-time fee of maybe $1000 be more or less limiting to potential content creators on Patreon? Would a subscription to keep the Patreon page up be better? Ultimately, Patreon isn't fundamentally doing something that even a non-tech user can't whip up for their own website. May need to resort to a payment processor (anoth…

> I am curious, do you think there is an ethical way to be a middleman like this?

I think ethics is not applicable here. Corps are for profit enterprises, and seek every chance to bring gain to shareholders.

Regulators goal is to support competitive market and healthy business environment, they totally can go after monopolists who abuse network effect and/or put limit on rent amount (say 5-15% from transaction) to support value creators.

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