Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

591–600 of 1001 posts

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#591

Post by wkat4242 »

Why does patreon really have to be an app though? It works just fine as a mobile site and it doesn't do anything complex that would require it to be an app.

And this goes for most services with an app, the main reason they have apps (and try to force their users to use those) is to collect more data from the user as an app has more opportunity to do this than a mobile site.

Of course for a supposedly 'noble cause' app like patreon they shouldn't be doing this at all in the first place.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#592

Post by wkat4242 »

danShumway wrote: post #554
Terretta wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was an open platform, then Apple couldn't charge any more than Steam which is on an open platform, because nobody would pay that much unless forced to. Wait, Steam charges more? Never mind.

If you're suggesting that Steam doesn't have an effective monopoly on the PC market, I have bad news for you. One of the biggest differences between Steam and Apple is that Steam does a better job of hiding the effects from users who will lash out at creators who talk about problems on the platform. An indie creator I follow recently implored fans to buy their next game on Steam and not other platforms... because in…

I always buy on Gog first because they really care about the user. No DRM, the ability to download safe copies in case some lawsuit happens and things get pulled out (e.g. like half the music in GTA San Andreas!).

I understand you as a creator prefer steam but I wouldn't obey that, sorry. Also, reinforcing their market position is not in my best interest as a consumer.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#593

Post by wkat4242 »

lapcat wrote: post #551
DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

> So there, looks like Apple brings in the money for Patreon. Apple users bring in the money for Patreon. I own an iPhone. I am not Apple, and Apple does not own me. Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

> Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

I had the same feeling but I couldn't put it to words that well. But you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for this!

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#594

Post by DavidPiper »

I'm a long-time Apple fan and this news just sucks.

Apple have been openly pro-creativity and pro-artist for a long time, and now they're actively hamstringing one of the best online platforms for facilitating that, for... profit reasons?

Maybe the ill-fated "crushing creativity" advert was just the beginning.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#595

Post by highwaylights »

desert_rue wrote: post #520
simonh wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broken up in what way, and how would it help?

Generally, the Apple Store would be a separate company from Apple phones. A user gets to choose which store they want to use on their phone. Along with other things like which map app is the default. This way, the different stores could compete - by charging lower fees or offering more services. Like the android store does a bare-bones check of the app and so it only charges 10%. Apple checks every app throughly, so…

Although I agree in principle, the counter-argument to this is that Apple would ultimately be blamed in the minds of consumers for not keeping those devices protected from bad software. They could say I told you so, but that doesn’t help them after the golden goose of the App Store has already been cooked.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#596

Post by wkat4242 »

cyberax wrote: post #475
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

[flagged]

Yeah exactly. Patreon doesn't have to be an app. It would work just fine as a website or even as a progressive web app. There is absoluteluy no need for it except marketing and data collection from the user (the main reason that most platforms say they are 'better in our app'). It's not at all better for the user, it's better for the platform. They can access more data from the user which they can use for marketing. There's the rub. Even without Apple's advertiser ID they can still collect a ton more info than a PWA. It also stops the user from using adblockers in many cases.

The thing is: Patreon is a service that's meant to be paid by a small fee included in the donations. There should be no need for them to gather data on their users as well.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#597

Post by s1artibartfast »

brigadier132 wrote: post #500
s1artibartfast wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. >does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? I will. If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. I agree that the high prop…

> Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. This has been known to not be true since capitalism was first conceived. I am the biggest free market capitalism proponent and what apple has on their app store is not free market capitalism, its pure rent seeking. Apple users should be able to decide what software and stores run on the device that they own.

I agree, under the assumption that users jailbreak their devices. In my mind Apple has zero obligation to enable it maximum leeway to obstruct it. The people don't want they locked down single function phone, they shouldn't buy one.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#598

Post by jasonfarnon »

xyst wrote: post #478
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

FTC is more active than it's ever been under Liza Khan, particularly in this sphere

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#599

Post by lapcat »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #587
lapcat wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So there, looks like Apple brings in the money for Patreon. Apple users bring in the money for Patreon. I own an iPhone. I am not Apple, and Apple does not own me. Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

So I'll start by saying that companies like Apple need to be regulated, as they're misusing their market power to the detriment of everyone but them. However, your argument isn't what you think it is. It's extremely common for companies to sell/gatekeep (Or "pimp" as you put it) access to "their" user base. Think credit cards (Amex can charge merchants more as because their users tend to spend more) or even club memb…

This is a very strange analogy.

I didn't buy my credit card. I don't own it. The credit card is just a little piece of plastic, totally useless without the line of credit, i.e, the service provided by the credit card company, in stark contrast with my computers, which can be used quite extensively without the App Store.

The credit card company is not gatekeeping "access" to me. I can pay for things with cash, a debit card, a check, etc. If I choose to pay with a credit card, it's because I wish to take advantage of the specific features of the credit card, the primary one of which is the ability to pay for the product later rather than at the moment of purchase.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#600

Post by wkat4242 »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #552
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

Let's take this to an extreme. Imagine an app that does little except thread together the basic UI components provided by iOS. In other words, something that most people here could write in an afternoon. Now imagine it ends up on the Apple marketplace. Given how much work goes into building iOS, the UX, and the app store, by your argument Apple should get 99.9% of the fees. The person who created the app just spent a…

But the app ecosystem is also a selling point for users to actually buy an iPhone, on which they already make a huge margin compared to the rest of the industry.
Post reply on HN