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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#501

Post by danShumway »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #480
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. >does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? I will. If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. I agree that the high prop…

> If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself.

Does Apple's refusal to allow apps to tell users about lower prices elsewhere make this claim more likely to be true or less likely to be true? If this is a free choice that consumers are making, why does Apple need to hide it from them?

I'm reminded of the same arguments that Facebook made about privacy before Apple (very much to their credit) made opt-outs a requirement for apps. And it turned out that lots of users did care about privacy when they were able to make an informed choice about it. Facebook's arguments ended up being mostly crap. Users, when educated and when given valid options, stopped making the choice that Facebook wanted them to make.

But now Apple has flipped over to Facebook's line of reasoning and is arguing the opposite.

I think your argument would have more weight if Apple didn't consistently demonstrate aggression and fear over their users being informed about the effects of app store fees. In this case, the vast majority of Patreon subscriptions for most users are going to become 30% more expensive. Apple appears to have an incredibly high vested interest in it not being explained to them why that happened.

That doesn't sound to me like Apple itself is confident that users value their app store enough to pay that fee willingly.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#503

Post by [deleted] »

hermitdev wrote: post #495
xyst wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

> It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies … I think you mean we should de-FAANG the regulatory agencies.

[deleted]

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#504

Post by hamandcheese »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #480
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. >does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? I will. If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself. I agree that the high prop…

> If most apple users refuse to go outside the app store for their content, Than clearly they care more about the ease of access than the content itself.

You can't really argue that it's a fair choice when Apple does everything in their power to make going outside their walls a worse experience.

Case in point, they hobble WebKit, but also forbid any alternative to WebKit. Are users choosing WebKit? Nope.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#505

Post by simonh »

xyst wrote: post #478
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

Broken up in what way, and how would it help?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#506

Post by jirf_dev »

danShumway wrote: post #145
dirtsoc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they should have just gone the same route as amazon with ebooks and removed the ability to subscribe in the app.

> Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

This is confusing to me, does this mean Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify will be in violation as well? None of these companies allow subscription or digital goods transactions in their iOS apps.

I’m not sure why Patreon couldn’t replace the “subscribe” button with a “wishlist” button within the iOS app. They could add a link that opens your wishlist in the browser too. It turns what should be 1 click into 3, but it seems far more sensible than accepting the 30% fee.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#507

Post by brigadier132 »

xyst wrote: post #478
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

Apple doesnt need to be broken up, they just need to be forced to open their devices. No proprietary apis that only they have access to, when you open the phone for the first time you should be able to pick what store to use and they have to allow alternative browsers

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#508

Post by Bwass »

xelamonster wrote: post #336
giancarlostoro wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to put an end to this is if more people stop installing apps that are just website skins, and just use the open web instead.

Yeah, though the problem with this is that from my experience with Android, the web version of Patreon is practically unusable. Not that the app is much better, they seem determined to come up with the most horrific UX anyone could imagine across all platforms, but it at least can somewhat consistently handle playing the podcasts I subscribe to without cutting out every five minutes.

What do you mean, unusable? It's simple and straightforward.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#509

Post by egypturnash »

voiceblue wrote: post #116
balozi wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patreon also stands to gain from this change. Come think of it, the new arrangement is a win for everyone involved - except the actual patrons ofcourse.

Is there any evidence that Apple has actually made this "threat"? I'm not seeing anything other than what Patreon has claimed (and it seems that they are only recently going to begin to allow iOS purchases, which might mean they are bringing this upon themselves). I am suspicious, because the specific change to per-creation billing is overwhelmingly positive for Patreon (and, as you pointed out, not for its users), f…

I am a creator on the per-creation model and I got a very unambiguously worded email from Patreon this morning basically saying "if we want to be on the iOS store, Apple requires that we remove all billing methods that are not compatible with their payment method, and yours is not; in November 2025, you will be switched to the one billing method that Apple allows us to still have. If you would like to start earlier go to this link and hit this button to start the process." They used more words but they were very clear that this is a thing Apple is imposing on them as the price for being on the iOS App Store.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#510

Post by baby_souffle »

mcgrath_sh wrote: post #415
reddalo wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. I agree, but I also wonder why Patreon needs an iOS app. It's 2024, you don't need an app for everything. See OnlyFans, they're doing fine even without being able to access the proprietary stores.

This is speculation: for younger people, apps are the web. I think there is some age/line where on one side, your first instinct is to open the browser on your phone and navigate to a website, and on the other side of the line, you open the app store and navigate to an app. Personally, I agree. I want better/first class mobile websites over an app. I don't want apps for most things. That said, I didn't grow up in a m…

> This is speculation: for younger people, apps are the web

I don’t think age is the driver. For most people, for the last decade, all software in their phone has come from the App Store. Everybody is trained to check there first. Even if you think to google it first, you’re just going to get App Store link in the top results. Company’s own site might be at the top and you’ll instinctively look for the ‘get on App Store’ badge when you click through.

Some small number of android power users are the only people that really know that downloading an app from not the App Store is possible.

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