Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#581

Post by harry8 » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 10:51 PM UTC

TheKarateKid wrote: post #490

baby wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hate how the current pattern is 1. Download seemingly cool app on iOS (free with potential payments) 2. Go through a 30min quizz 3. Required to subscribe for $150/year to start using the app It’s not free, it’s false advertising

Funny how UX only matters to Apple when it doesn't cost them $$

In the days of the ipod every single user of it I encountered had apple's UX wipe their music collection.

But maybe that was by design as they decided to call their music shop by the same name as their ipod management software. That is the essence of Apple's UX. Shiny destruction of your property. It remains so.

The UX everyone wanted was copying files onto and off the device presented as storage on any computer it was plugged in to.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#582

Post by 05 » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 10:54 PM UTC

nomel wrote: post #537

TheKarateKid wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how UX only matters to Apple when it doesn't cost them $$

They added "in app purchases" indicators in the store for this. I use it all the time. "In app purchases" on something that claims it's free is not free.

Yeah but you can’t filter on it, dark patterns at work.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#583

Post by joemi » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 10:54 PM UTC

AndyKelley wrote: post #392

I think we should strive for making all "middle-man" platforms non-profits. App stores should be run by non-profits. Food delivery platforms should be non-profits. Rideshare platforms should be non-profits. I think it's the only way to defend against the natural process of enshittification that occurs when the platform itself is has a conflict of interest from the two parties that it connects. That goes for Patreon i…

This is an interesting idea. Though I think it'll be tough to differentiate what exactly constitutes a middle man, and therefore hard/impossible to enact. Would marketplaces (such as Amazon) be considered a middle man? If so, good luck making any traction on this plan. If not, then why would app stores be considered middle men if Amazon isn't? It would have to come down to some very particular and very exact legal points, and you can bet every middle man would try very hard to be just barely on the OK side of the law.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#584

Post by queuebert » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 10:55 PM UTC

frumper wrote: post #451

queuebert wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of like how realtors make more money on a house transaction than the closing attorneys who draw up all the paperwork and execute it legally.

I don't know if that is a good comparison. Our realtor has spent a lot of hours over the past few years showing us homes and writing up more than a few losing bids. It's not constant attention, but so far it's all unpaid.

One is necessary to have a legal transaction, while the other is rent-seeking. People buy cars all the time without agents. We have excellent websites to educate us about car features and locate cars for sale. Realtors keep their racket going by working with each other to get houses sold, while ignoring FSBO homes. In fact, buyer's agents have a conflict of interest in that they get paid more if you pay more for the house. How people accept this befuddles me.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#585

Post by kmeisthax » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 10:58 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #449

kmeisthax wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Killing per-creation billing and demanding a 30% cut that will be passed onto the consumer sounds like a pretty obvious example to me.

I'm not going to fall all over myself defending Apple, but it's not as cut and dry as being a price gouge. Apple spent mountains of money on R&D to create wildly popular consumer devices, build and maintain the systems, build and maintain infrastructure, security systems, app distribution systems, and operate payment systems. There's no reason Patreon must use Apple's store. They could run their whole iOS experience…

I don't have an explanation from Patreon as to why they didn't ship a webapp, but I can at least provide some plausible explanations.

The thing is, while iOS is only 27% of the global phone market, that percentage increases when you look at high-value customers. That is, the people with disposable income to spend on fancier phones[0], the people who pay for apps, and the people who would, most critically, donate to an artist's recurring crowdfunding campaign. This isn't even something I made up, it's specifically one of the allegations in the DOJ's lawsuit against Apple.

Now, you are a counterparty to this $3tn megacorporation[1] who owns all your customers. Said corporation is altering the deal: you either bill through our royalty-bearing[2] payment processor or we kick you off the platform. You have two options:

- Upend large sections of your business model to comply with Apple guidelines, including killing an unusually quirky billing model some fraction of your creators make use of, or,

- Leave the platform where all your creators' customers are, hope said creators can get people to follow along through Apple's convenient and extremely discoverable six-step process[3] to install a PWA, and enjoy degraded access to push notifications[4], having to fight Google SEO spam for discoverability, and the ongoing business risk of Apple having complete and total editorial control over how your webapp works on iOS[5].

I'm sure Jack Conte looked at Patreon's numbers, looked at how many subscriptions they get through the app, how many people browse through patreon.com, and realized not being on iOS would screw creators over more.

[0] To be clear, high-end Android phones cost more than iPhones now, but iPhone is still a status symbol.

[1] Incidentally, this is about half the current budget of the US government.

[2] Apple's argument in the Epic lawsuit was that the 30% is a copyright royalty for the use of iOS, which doesn't quite make sense but the judge bought it.

[3] Navigate to the website, press the Share button, scroll down to "Add to Home Screen", fill out the form to name your new home screen icon, tap "Add", relog into the PWA again

[4] Yes, I know iOS added push notification support. I'll believe it when the Google Fi PWA actually notifies me about text messages on my iPad.

[5] Yes, this risk is higher for webapps. Apple can't modify submitted apps after-the-fact (just refuse to host them), but they can modify webpages behind your back by changing Safari. To quote Cory Doctorow: "An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to block ads in it." If users can block ads, Apple can block whatever else they want, too.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#586

Post by rchaud » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 11:00 PM UTC

InsomniacL wrote: post #208

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't charge 30% for physical good sold through apps on ios.

That's an interesting idea. What if, instead of 'subscribing' for $10, you purchase a grain of sand for $10. The grain of sand is available for collection from somewhere, doesn't matter where because nobody would bother to collect it. Your physical purchase comes with free access to digital content.

This is the old eBay shipping trick. Ebay charged vendors a percentage of the product sale price, but nothing on shipping. So I'd often buy posters for $0.99 with $14.99 shipping (US Media Mail shipping was a lot lower than that).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#587

Post by ProfessorLayton » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 11:01 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #551

DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

> So there, looks like Apple brings in the money for Patreon. Apple users bring in the money for Patreon. I own an iPhone. I am not Apple, and Apple does not own me. Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

So I'll start by saying that companies like Apple need to be regulated, as they're misusing their market power to the detriment of everyone but them.

However, your argument isn't what you think it is. It's extremely common for companies to sell/gatekeep (Or "pimp" as you put it) access to "their" user base. Think credit cards (Amex can charge merchants more as because their users tend to spend more) or even club memberships like Costco (They're certainly not letting telcos sign up users for free.)

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#588

Post by kllrnohj » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 11:01 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #453

wpm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And watch loads of creators lose a good portion of their livelihood and leave the platform?

This is part of Apple's argument why they think they are owed 30%. They have built and nurture the most affluent set of mobile users with a CC ready to charge. A company leaving Android is ho hum, but leaving iOS is business ending. How valuable then is it to be on iOS? 30%? I'm not making a judgement on right or wrong, but I see many people just thinking about infrastructure and not realizing Apple sees iOS user bas…

Should Microsoft get 30% of everything you do on a computer? That'd be utterly absurd. Apple already got paid for those users when the user bought the device. Why do they get a share of the profits of a completely independent transaction between two other parties? It's ridiculous.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#589

Post by Workaccount2 » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 11:05 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #320

akudha wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot topic of discussion where? Amongst developers, right? How many non-developer Apple users are aware of Apple’s shenanigans? I doubt not many. Even if the end users are aware and accept it, that doesn’t make Apple right. We as a society accept a lot of things - from the security theatre at airports (last week, I saw photos of passengers taken, for domestic flights) to Amazon workers peeing in bottles. As long as we…

https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-plans-new-fees-rest... https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2024/01/17/apples-... https://www.insightpartners.com/ideas/do-you-have-to-pay-the... Yes, there is far more discussion in tech/nerd spaces, but it's also being talked about in non-tech areas too.

If you talk to people with iphones on the street of Anytown, USA, they will tell you that Apple is good because it doesn't ruin picture quality in texts like the androids do.

That is who the average iphone user is.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#590

Post by lovethevoid » Mon, Aug 12, 2024, 11:07 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #238

lovethevoid wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t allowed in the US, not sure about the new EU rules regarding this specifically. Best they can do is show a “deduction” only on web/other platforms that shows they’re getting it cheaper than iOS iirc.

> This isn’t allowed in the US Can you cite the US law for it? I think it's specifically Apple that doesn't want it because it would give more visibility to Apple's abusive behavior.

Should have specified, isn't allowed in the US App Store.