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Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

theguardian.com

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Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#111

Post by hollerith »

xnx wrote: post #109
lm28469 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to Structural strength: yeahhhh... no Longevity: not more than anything else, a pain in the ass to replace though Improved air quality: The petrol derivate foam that leaves a god awful nasty smell for days/weeks and can offgas for years is good for air quality ? rock or better sheep wool is much better in that regard In the end of the day pe…

> Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to Definitely a risk with any type of improperly installed moisture barrier (like ZIP sheathing). > Structural strength: yeahhhh... no It would take me some time to find more formal studies, but there are a lot of videos on YouTube that demonstrate the addeded strength. Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mMHJpSHKJM > god awful na…

Nit: the usual term is "vapor barrier".

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#112

Post by btilly »

maxerickson wrote: post #107
btilly wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you ignoring the "further damage" bit? The issue isn't the cost of the removal. It is the unknown further liability.

I'm saying that someone looking to shift 300000 is going to go ahead and remove the unknown. If the installation was done reasonably, they probably won't have further damage. I wasn't really meaning to ignore it, just wasn't speaking to it.

You are wrong to ignore it. Why would you ignore the very point that I'm going out of the way to explain? That's just asking to fail to understand.

The person who wants to shift 300000 isn't the problem. It is the bank who is saying no to the mortgage. Banking has been described as "picking up pennies in front of a steamroller". For them, a housing mortgage has limited upside, and a large possible downside. They stay in business by avoiding hitting that downside.

Therefore a property that can't be inspected property, can't get a mortgage. Full stop.

The prospective buyer can't buy without a mortgage. Sure, the buyer could pay for the removal. But now you're asking the buyer to pay for a large repair, just to decide if this might be the house for them? And that payment comes out of what they could have spent on another house! This makes no sense.

The only party that has the right incentive to fix the problem is the current owner. It's part of getting your house ready for sale. That sucks - they thought that they were improving their home, and they made it worse. But still, they created a problem, and nobody else is going to volunteer to help.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#113

Post by maxerickson »

btilly wrote: post #112
maxerickson wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that someone looking to shift 300000 is going to go ahead and remove the unknown. If the installation was done reasonably, they probably won't have further damage. I wasn't really meaning to ignore it, just wasn't speaking to it.

You are wrong to ignore it. Why would you ignore the very point that I'm going out of the way to explain? That's just asking to fail to understand. The person who wants to shift 300000 isn't the problem. It is the bank who is saying no to the mortgage. Banking has been described as "picking up pennies in front of a steamroller". For them, a housing mortgage has limited upside, and a large possible downside. They stay…

It's easy to inspect the property properly though. It just costs 3500 Euros to make it possible.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#114

Post by btilly »

maxerickson wrote: post #113
btilly wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong to ignore it. Why would you ignore the very point that I'm going out of the way to explain? That's just asking to fail to understand. The person who wants to shift 300000 isn't the problem. It is the bank who is saying no to the mortgage. Banking has been described as "picking up pennies in front of a steamroller". For them, a housing mortgage has limited upside, and a large possible downside. They stay…

It's easy to inspect the property properly though. It just costs 3500 Euros to make it possible.

Congratulations. You've just arrived at the whole point of the article.

The owners paid money to improve their house. Now they have to pay more to undo that if they want to have a chance of selling it. That's a rather nasty thing to be hit with when you're trying to sell your house so that you can move.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#115

Post by maxerickson »

btilly wrote: post #114
maxerickson wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to inspect the property properly though. It just costs 3500 Euros to make it possible.

Congratulations. You've just arrived at the whole point of the article. The owners paid money to improve their house. Now they have to pay more to undo that if they want to have a chance of selling it. That's a rather nasty thing to be hit with when you're trying to sell your house so that you can move.

I mean, that's where I started, I just have the unmitigated gall to call a couple of points of cost irritating.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#116

Post by throw0101d »

javagram wrote: post #57

Interesting the difference between UK and USA here. Spray foam applied directly underneath the roof deck is very common here and is a recommended assembly by building scientists, e.g. https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvent... Not sure if there is a significant climate difference in the UK that makes this construction more problematic, the article mentions moisture but the U.S. building scientist…

> Not sure if there is a significant climate difference in the UK that makes this construction more problematic, the article mentions moisture but the U.S. building scientists say 2 inches closed cell spray foam will block air and vapors from reaching the wood of the roof. Perhaps the issue is the open cell foam mentioned in the article - it seems that closed cell foam is the recommended type in the USA.

Implementation details matter. From the OP's article:

> At the root of the problem are cowboy traders who apply the foam without a full survey or appropriate expertise – but because of lenders’ caution, this is affecting other homeowners who had similar work.

One potential problem that could occur is ridge rot:

> Lots of attics insulated with open cell low density spray foam (Photograph 1, Photograph 2 and Photograph 3) are having problems – in hot humid climates, mixed humid climates, and cold climates. The problems are moisture related. The attics are “unvented” – open cell low density spray foam is installed directly on the underside of roof sheathing. The attics are humid. Very humid. Unacceptably humid. And the humidity collects at the upper portion of the attics.

* https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insig...

> When you spray ocSPF into wall cavities from the interior the ocSPF can act as the air control layer and thermal control layer. It can’t act as the vapor control layer – it is too vapor open. This is a problem when you spray ocSPF on the underside of roof/attic assemblies you can end up with problems (“Ping Pong Water”).

* https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insig...

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#117

Post by throw0101d »

lm28469 wrote: post #106
xnx wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Properly installed closed-cell spray foam seems to have a ton of benefits: Moisture barrier: It blocks water vapor and prevents mold growth by reducing humidity levels in crawl spaces and other areas. Structural strength: It can double the racking load of a home, making it more resistant to severe weather. Air sealing: It protects against drafts, cold spots, and uneven heating. Longevity: It retains its R-val…

Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to Structural strength: yeahhhh... no Longevity: not more than anything else, a pain in the ass to replace though Improved air quality: The petrol derivate foam that leaves a god awful nasty smell for days/weeks and can offgas for years is good for air quality ? rock or better sheep wool is much better in that regard In the end of the day pe…

> Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to

So properly ventilate, which you want/need to do anyway.

Anything that is airtight can trap things, and you generally want to to be as airtight.

Unless you want to start getting into design details that are airtight but vapour open.

> Structural strength: yeahhhh... no

Yes, it does (at least per UFlorida researchers):

* https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/insulation/the-structural-p...

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#118

Post by throw0101d »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #110
lm28469 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to Structural strength: yeahhhh... no Longevity: not more than anything else, a pain in the ass to replace though Improved air quality: The petrol derivate foam that leaves a god awful nasty smell for days/weeks and can offgas for years is good for air quality ? rock or better sheep wool is much better in that regard In the end of the day pe…

Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to This is more applicable to fiberglass. How does humidity somehow get past the foam while being kept there? I never see any evidence for these claims. Structural strength: yeahhhh... no Foam adds rigidity to wooden structures. This is actually very commonly brought up and noticed where houses creak far less on top of the sounds proofing. S…

> How does humidity somehow get past the foam while being kept there? I never see any evidence for these claims.

Open cell:

* https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insig...

* https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insig...

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#119

Post by [deleted] »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #108
lm28469 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water _will_ get through your roof at some point, and it'll sit nice and tight right above your spray foam, for years, decades, and you'll never ever know about it until the problem is too big to handle. This is especially true for hack jobs on older buildings.

Why would water be able to get through your roof but air not be able to get to it at the same time? Why would water be able to get through your roof with spray foam making anything worse? Water damage means you have to replace things anyway.

[deleted]

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#120

Post by rascul »

hollerith wrote: post #111
xnx wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moisture barrier: it traps the humidity in places you potentially don't want to Definitely a risk with any type of improperly installed moisture barrier (like ZIP sheathing). > Structural strength: yeahhhh... no It would take me some time to find more formal studies, but there are a lot of videos on YouTube that demonstrate the addeded strength. Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mMHJpSHKJM > god awful na…

Nit: the usual term is "vapor barrier".

Moisture barriers and vapor barriers are different things that are often confused. And sometimes a thing is both.
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