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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#461

Post by nodamage »

wpm wrote: post #332
coldcache wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Brown Shoe Company merger in the 1960s was shot down, even though it would only control around 7% of the nation’s shoe supply. It’s important to not just consider the quantitative impact of the monopolist (percent of market share) but also the qualitative components (is it vertically integrated? is it hurting consumers?). I’m not sure whether or not Apple is a monopolist, but I certainly think there are some argu…

US Antitrust law generally is about pricing, collusion (over pricing or market access), and competition more so than just monopoly power. It is straight up not illegal to be a monopoly, only to abuse the position. I'm surprised there haven't been more attempts at a "tying" argument against Apple's App Store and their platforms, but I'm also not a lawyer. It has what looks like a pretty clear, long history of being co…

> I'm surprised there haven't been more attempts at a "tying" argument against Apple's App Store and their platforms, but I'm also not a lawyer. It has what looks like a pretty clear, long history of being considered an anti-competitive practice by the courts.

Epic tried to make this argument in court and failed, mostly because tying is generally not illegal if the consumer is aware of the tie when purchasing and has the option to purchase an alternative product without such a tie.

In other words it would be absolutely legal for Brother to sell a printer that only uses Brother-branded paper and toner, because if you don't like those restrictions you can simply go and purchase a non-Brother printer instead.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#462

Post by zchrykng »

octacat wrote: post #412
input_sh wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple forbids even mentioning alternative payment methods within the app.

It is patreon, creators will just ask people to use a browser to subscribe.

That will be just great when Apple finds a creator doing that during App Review and bans Patreon over it. Patreon is going to be forced into the position of policing it for Apple, I'd guess.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#463

Post by trollied »

jprete wrote: post #10

I remember reading that per-creation billing is a very important feature for Patreon creators, because it removes the moral obligation to produce content just to justify a subscription. If Patreon really doesn't want to kill the feature itself, but is just responding to Apple's enforcement, then it seems like a really clear illustration of monopoly power - pushing unrelated markets to change their own structure and p…

The thing most aren’t thinking about is that per-creation billing is an absolute nightmare, and I don’t blame Apple for not supporting it. Can’t even begin to imagine the support nightmare/chargebacks etc.

It’s not all about the 30% cut.

If it was easy and trouble free, they would support it.

Imagine what a great time apps would have if Apple let them charge you an amount whenever they wanted, without user authorisation?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#464

Post by danShumway »

abfan1127 wrote: post #447
danShumway wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, I would argue, like if a realtor made more money off of the sale than the person selling the house made.

that is easily true. You buy a house for $500k. A year later, you decide to move. The house's value remains at $500k. Realtor commissions of 6% cost you $30k. You lost $30k on the total transaction, the realtor made $30k (not including the original buy).

Only on HN would I see someone argue that depreciating or stagnant assets are the same thing as a 30% transaction fee. This community is smart enough to be able to tell the difference between a tax on revenue and a tax on profit.

Apple is imposing a tax on revenue that is higher than the revenue that Patreon pulls in from each transaction fee.

There is no equivalent situation in a realtor market. In no world would a realtor sell your house for $500k and then tell you that they deserve a higher cut of the revenue than you do.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#465

Post by crazygringo »

goosedragons wrote: post #25
throwaway98797 wrote: post #3

where’s the line between buying something on amazon, ordering a ride on uber, and patreon? why do some purchases get exempt and not others?

Arbitrary Apple rules. Apple decided that "physical" goods & services in app purchases don't get taxed (e.g., clothes, uber rides). Digital goods do because they feel like they can get away with it which is why you can't buy eBooks from Kobo or Amazon on iOS, can't buy or rent movies from Google on iOS. People will tell you this is for "safety" and to keep you from getting scammed but there's nothing stopping malicio…

But Apple doesn't take a share of Venmo or PayPal or Zelle either.

And Patreon sure feels a lot more like those -- you're sending money to a creator.

Sometimes you get extra content, but sometimes you don't.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#466

Post by xyst »

matwood wrote: post #425
xyst wrote: post #360

It’s odd how Apple picks and chooses where to enforce this requirement. Netflix has been using their own billing system for years, yet I can still download Netflix on iOS, tvOS app stores. Makes me wonder if there is an under the table deal between Netflix and Apple. On the topic of Patreon vs Apple. I am not a lawyer but this seems to have the same basis as the Epic Games vs Apple litigation.

I know for awhile Netflix had this weird thing where you called a phone number and they would direct you to the Netflix website to sign up. It's not having their own billing system, but allowing purchases to be made in-app that triggers the requirement. Which as far as I can tell, Netflix does not allow. I just checked and I can't change my plan in the app.

Maybe Patreon could leverage this loop hole as well.

You can view content from creators in app. But only patreon.com can be used to manage subscriptions to each creator. No in-app purchases on Google or Apple App Stores.

UX takes a small hit, but better than giving up 27-30% to Apple or Google.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#467

Post by AmericanChopper »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

I don't like this action form Apple, but I don't agree with your assessment of market economics here.

The problem with "fairness" is that there is no objective measure of it. Everybody evaluates fairness according to how it aligns with their own personal interests.

This is one of the key problems a free market economy solves. Price discovery is the intersection of what somebody's willing to sell something for, and what somebody else is willing to pay for it. Both of these parties will have a completely different idea of what's fair. That's why fairness is not a valid price discovery mechanism, and I don't think any free market economist has ever advocated for it.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#468

Post by crazygringo »

drewg123 wrote: post #339

The only reason I'd want to use a Patreon app over their website would be to play creator's videos on a large screen. As far as I can tell, they don't have an AppleTV app. This, TBH, is why I've never supported a creator via Patreon, as I have no idea how I'd access a creator's supporter-only content in a way that was convenient for me.

Can't you just play a video from their website full-screen, and AirPlay that to your Apple TV?

AirPlay is the general way to get anything from your phone or Mac to your Apple TV.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#469

Post by egypturnash »

bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

Oh you too. Glad to know I'm not the only one who's really liked per-creation for years. "I pay my rent if I can do eight posts of comics pages/art/etc a month" was a good kick in the ass to keep working.

Patreon's been trying to kick everyone off of per-creation for like half the time I've been using it, so I'm sure they're pretty delighted to have this excuse to nuke that mode. I don't think I've seen a single Patreon-like that has it and I don't want it badly enough to try and cobble up something out of a few Wordpress plugins.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#470

Post by riku_iki »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees.

they are both rent seeking middle-men who abuse network effect, its just one has more power than another.

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