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Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

theguardian.com

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Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#91

Post by CyberDildonics »

javagram wrote: post #57

Interesting the difference between UK and USA here. Spray foam applied directly underneath the roof deck is very common here and is a recommended assembly by building scientists, e.g. https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvent... Not sure if there is a significant climate difference in the UK that makes this construction more problematic, the article mentions moisture but the U.S. building scientist…

You are completely right, a lot doesn't add up. People in this thread seem to just accept the moisture argument without thinking it through or doing research. Lots of people have spray foam and lots of people are happy with it. There is no '25% of wood deteriorating over the next couple of years'.

The reason it's nonsense is that the side covered with foam (especially closed cell) is now protected by waterproof polyurethane. Water isn't getting to that side.

The other side is now insulated from the inside, so that isn't getting things like condensation because the temperature differences should be negligible. If people think about a cheap styrofoam cooler, it's cold on the inside and there isn't condensation on the outside on a humid summer day. The outside isn't cold, that's the point, so condensation doesn't happen there.

Then maybe someone would say if there was a roof leak the wood would get wet and rot, but that would happen anyway. That's a major disaster and foam won't cause any more problems than are already happening.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#92

Post by arethuza »

javagram wrote: post #57

Interesting the difference between UK and USA here. Spray foam applied directly underneath the roof deck is very common here and is a recommended assembly by building scientists, e.g. https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvent... Not sure if there is a significant climate difference in the UK that makes this construction more problematic, the article mentions moisture but the U.S. building scientist…

It might be because slate/tile roofs are the most common roofing materials used in the UK and insulation is usually (in my experience) laid between the joists?

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#93

Post by lm28469 »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #91
javagram wrote: post #57

Interesting the difference between UK and USA here. Spray foam applied directly underneath the roof deck is very common here and is a recommended assembly by building scientists, e.g. https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvent... Not sure if there is a significant climate difference in the UK that makes this construction more problematic, the article mentions moisture but the U.S. building scientist…

You are completely right, a lot doesn't add up. People in this thread seem to just accept the moisture argument without thinking it through or doing research. Lots of people have spray foam and lots of people are happy with it. There is no '25% of wood deteriorating over the next couple of years'. The reason it's nonsense is that the side covered with foam (especially closed cell) is now protected by waterproof polyu…

Water _will_ get through your roof at some point, and it'll sit nice and tight right above your spray foam, for years, decades, and you'll never ever know about it until the problem is too big to handle.

This is especially true for hack jobs on older buildings.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#94

Post by arethuza »

manarth wrote: post #52
loopdoend wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably going through the attic

Which is where the foam is. And the roof timbers are covered by the foam, hidden from easy visual examination.

I couldn't tell from the article if they meant the roof joists or the rafters.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#95

Post by michaelt »

bloak wrote: post #67
gambiting wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK all people who do these kinds of jobs(builder, plumbers, electricians etc) are called traders, I've never heard anyone use the word "tradesman".

Here's an example: https://www.myworkman.co.uk/tradesmen/ The term seems to lack gender-neutrality so Wikipedia prefers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesperson The trouble with "trader" is that it usually means something else, namely someone who trades. A tradesperson doesn't trade; they practise a trade (= craft/profession).

Visit a UK builders' merchant or DIY store and they'll offer a 'trade account' with a 'trade discount' and 'trade deals' - they'll even sell you 'trade paint'

Ambiguous on a global scale? Maybe. Ambiguous when you're standing in a builders' merchant? Absolutely not.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#96

Post by arethuza »

lm28469 wrote: post #93
CyberDildonics wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely right, a lot doesn't add up. People in this thread seem to just accept the moisture argument without thinking it through or doing research. Lots of people have spray foam and lots of people are happy with it. There is no '25% of wood deteriorating over the next couple of years'. The reason it's nonsense is that the side covered with foam (especially closed cell) is now protected by waterproof polyu…

Water _will_ get through your roof at some point, and it'll sit nice and tight right above your spray foam, for years, decades, and you'll never ever know about it until the problem is too big to handle. This is especially true for hack jobs on older buildings.

Whereas the traditional warning sign in older UK buildings is for you to know about a problem with your roof by having your ceiling plaster collapse when you least expect it!

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#97

Post by bloak »

pif wrote: post #72
gambiting wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....What definition? As a Brit, I'm telling you that's what we call people in these professions, anyone who comes to work on your house is a "trader" - you can choose to believe me or not lol. Edit: and as another commenter pointed out, it's literally the government definition of someone running their own business - "sole trader".

I do believe you. As I did not find a definition with a quick search, I wondered whether it was some regional/dialect thing.

Perhaps it is (or at least was) to some extent regional. Oxford English Dictionary does not have the sense of "trader" that's being discussed here. It does however have "tradesman = A man engaged in a trade or a skilled manual occupation". It also has a second sense for that word: "tradesman = A man engaged in trade or the sale of goods and commodities" and one of the examples for that sense, from 1906, is this sentence:

> ‘Tradesman’, which in the north is used to denote a workman who has learned a trade, while in the south it is made to apply to a man who runs a business.

That was more than a hundred years ago and things may have moved on a bit since then, and in any case that sentence is quoted as an example rather than a claim by the editors of the dictionary, but perhaps despite my current place of residence I'm a northerner at heart?

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#98

Post by D13Fd »

markphip wrote: post #73

This is shocking and confusing. In the US if you watch HGTV and Mike Holmes, who works in Canada, all they do is talk about how great spray foam is and that is the gold standard. To the point I have had major FOMO for years because I do not have it. Reading this article and the comments here ... I do not want to think, other than being glad it was too expensive to consider.

Yeah, reading this from the US, it looks weird. Our house is insulated using closed-cell spray foam installed in the late 1970's, and it has held up perfectly in the time since, in the generally wet and humid northeast U.S. We have continued using spray foam when we make additions and changes, both for consistency and because it seems to work very well.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#99

Post by happytoexplain »

eadmund wrote: post #25
pif wrote: post #19

> At the root of the problem are cowboy traders who apply the foam without a full survey or appropriate expertise.

I was initially confused when I read it, but I think that ‘trader’ here must be the politically-correct word for ‘tradesman’ (someone engaged in a trade) rather than someone who trades (like a stockbroker).

I'm not sure how you're applying the phrase "politically correct" here, but yes, it is a normal abbreviation for "tradesman".

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#100

Post by btilly »

maxerickson wrote: post #81
btilly wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it requires a 3300€ removal just to inspect for further damage of unknown and possibly large size. If it is large and the homeowner is unable to cope, the lender is at risk. Because tbe lenders are at risk here, they won't lend unless you do the removal so that the lender can inspect.

Given housing prices, it seems that the 3500 is merely (potentially) wasteful and (definitely) irritating. It isn't gonna make it impossible to sell a place.

Why are you ignoring the "further damage" bit?

The issue isn't the cost of the removal. It is the unknown further liability.

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