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Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

theguardian.com

31–40 of 133 posts

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#31
post #2

Can someone explain the mechanism how the foam can damage the building? I didn’t quite get it from the article.

Water vapor condenses into water and causes mold/rot. Closed cell foam doesn't let water out through the foam (open cell does, but open cell vs closed cell needs a long discussion of pros and cons - in general I'd call closed cell better if you can mitigate this issue). The problem is insulation is added in summer when there is high humidity (there is a minimum temperature) so all the wood is at the wetter stage, then winter comes and the whole wall cools off and any air trapped condenses the water since the water vapor cannot escape.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#32
post #14

Reminds me of an recent instance where some friends wanted to buy a house, but it had solar panels. The solar panels couldn't be included in the mortgage and my friends couldn't afford to buy them outright along with the downpayment on the mortgage. The house still remains unsold.

I wonder how the price of solar panels work WRT mortgage: Is there any government- or bank-approved formula for how much solar panels on a house cost? Otherwise why not sell them for $9.99 along with the house?

Because in most cases the leasing company that owns the solar panels will not transfer the lease to the new owner, they will only agree to sell them outright at some outrageous price(usually the cost of the panels when they were new, which usually has absolutely nothing to do with their current market value or in fact with the cost of a similar installation today).

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#33
post #14

Reminds me of an recent instance where some friends wanted to buy a house, but it had solar panels. The solar panels couldn't be included in the mortgage and my friends couldn't afford to buy them outright along with the downpayment on the mortgage. The house still remains unsold.

Very curious where this is? Sounds ridiculous, what jurisdiction wouldn’t include them as part of the house? Utterly bizarre! Also why couldn’t they afford them? Is this the US where the equivalent of a $5000 system elsewhere in the world seems to cost $25K to install for some reason? Even then, with depreciation as long as it’s a couple of years old surely the residual value isn’t that much…?

Iowa. I don't know the details, but I assume the solar panels were leased. My friends don't make a lot of money, so they're pretty limited in what they can afford up front. IIRC, the panels would have added around $10K.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#36
post #25
post #19

> At the root of the problem are cowboy traders who apply the foam without a full survey or appropriate expertise.

I was initially confused when I read it, but I think that ‘trader’ here must be the politically-correct word for ‘tradesman’ (someone engaged in a trade) rather than someone who trades (like a stockbroker).

Is this incorrect? Can a down-voter comment? I might learn something.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#37
post #14

Reminds me of an recent instance where some friends wanted to buy a house, but it had solar panels. The solar panels couldn't be included in the mortgage and my friends couldn't afford to buy them outright along with the downpayment on the mortgage. The house still remains unsold.

I wonder how the price of solar panels work WRT mortgage: Is there any government- or bank-approved formula for how much solar panels on a house cost? Otherwise why not sell them for $9.99 along with the house?

[deleted]

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#38
post #25
post #19

> At the root of the problem are cowboy traders who apply the foam without a full survey or appropriate expertise.

I was initially confused when I read it, but I think that ‘trader’ here must be the politically-correct word for ‘tradesman’ (someone engaged in a trade) rather than someone who trades (like a stockbroker).

> politically-correct word for ‘tradesman’

There is nothing politically correct or incorrect about it. It is just the standard term. Meanwhile in Australia they use 'Tradie' from what I understand.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#39
What makes it unsellable or unmoragable? I don't know how that works on the UK, but here if there is a defect in a house that requires 3300€ to fix, the house value is just estimated 3300€ less than the price without the defect (or worse case scenario, you account for the value of redoing the roof if there is a risk it's needed)

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#40
post #5
post #2

Can someone explain the mechanism how the foam can damage the building? I didn’t quite get it from the article.

From the article: > Executive found that condensation could cause 25% of roof timber to decay within five years if spray foam is applied directly to roof tiles, or certain underlays. The general risks increase the further north the property is, because of colder climates. Most houses in the UK will have a timber frame, condensation will cause the wood to rot.

I was wondering indeed, I am insulating with PIR plates, but they are coated with a vapor-closed layer and one is advised to tape all panels together with vaper-closed (aluminum) tape, so no air from inside the living area can get into the insulating layer, cool down and leave condensed water. As an additional precaution, the advice is to not insulate from the inside if a vapor-closed foil is on the outside of the wooden part of the roof (where the tiles are resting on), to ensure any vapor getting into the insulation after all, can vaporize away when temperatures rise.

All that being common knowledge, it does indeed seem weird that people were just spraying foam directly on the inside of their roofs as vapor will be deposited somewhere in the open cell structure of the foam, or against the inside of the wood/roof-tiles (as the air cools down, it can hold less and less water so that condenses).

Given all that knowledge, I'm still unable to close all the vapor bridges in my house, because I can't remove certain structures. So it is still a bit of a gamble here and there, where the moisture will pile up. I just try to get it to pile up in sites that are exposed to outside air.

I can't imaging everyone being as analytical and careful as me though. Indeed I sometime here people just pasting PIR plates or mineral-wool in place and leaving them like that, no vapor screens or anything. Time will tell what happens to these houses. Old houses were made to just have a lot of heat-transport through the structure, which prevents vapor deposition. Insulating any house should come with at least some thought about where the humid inside air will go (preferably outside through ventilation holes.)

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