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Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

theguardian.com

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Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#71

Post by jordanb »

lm28469 wrote: post #48

Spray foam sounds good at first but it's almost always complete trash. Nasty chemicals, 0 ventilation, poor humidity management, pain in the ass to remove. It's one of these things poor people get because it's cheap upfront but in the end it'll cost you twice as much as a proper insulation system It's easy to apply and looks cool so that's good for instagram builders/remodelers, plus they'll probably be out of busine…

I have an interest in metal boats and in the 70s-80s it was common to spray foam these vessels. This pretty much always caused premature end of life due to corrosion.

There's a whole class of corrosion in metal structures called Corrosion Under Insulation or CUI. This is a problem for any insulated metal structure, but it is way worse with spray foam because the foam traps moisture very effectively, when it breaks down it becomes acidic, it is difficult to remove for inspection or repair, and it makes hotwork dangerous because it is flammable.

When I started seeing wooden houses and roof decks get spray foamed, I could only think that these structures will likely be rotten and useless in 20-30 years. I would only sprayfoam something if the substrate is completely impervious to moisture, like if it was fiberglass or something. Even then you're likely looking forward to a pretty evil concoction under that insulation in a decade or so.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#72

Post by pif »

gambiting wrote: post #66
pif wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please offer a link to an online dictionary offering this definition? Thanks in advance!

....What definition? As a Brit, I'm telling you that's what we call people in these professions, anyone who comes to work on your house is a "trader" - you can choose to believe me or not lol. Edit: and as another commenter pointed out, it's literally the government definition of someone running their own business - "sole trader".

I do believe you. As I did not find a definition with a quick search, I wondered whether it was some regional/dialect thing.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#73

Post by markphip »

This is shocking and confusing. In the US if you watch HGTV and Mike Holmes, who works in Canada, all they do is talk about how great spray foam is and that is the gold standard. To the point I have had major FOMO for years because I do not have it.

Reading this article and the comments here ... I do not want to think, other than being glad it was too expensive to consider.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#74

Post by bluGill »

thriftwy wrote: post #17
CivBase wrote: post #14

Reminds me of an recent instance where some friends wanted to buy a house, but it had solar panels. The solar panels couldn't be included in the mortgage and my friends couldn't afford to buy them outright along with the downpayment on the mortgage. The house still remains unsold.

I wonder how the price of solar panels work WRT mortgage: Is there any government- or bank-approved formula for how much solar panels on a house cost? Otherwise why not sell them for $9.99 along with the house?

In many locations solar add zero value to the house. So it is possible that you owe more on the house+panels than you can get. Most buyers do not know the worth of solar and so won't pay anything extra for a house that has them (overall, a few are willing to pay, but others will see it as something they will have to pay to remove). Even if you find the one buyer who understands the value, the bank do not understand how it will affect finances and so assume zero - backed up with there are so few buyers who care that they don't see many higher offers coming in for houses with solar.

I ate $20k on my last house because of the above.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#75

Post by bloak »

arethuza wrote: post #56
gambiting wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK all people who do these kinds of jobs(builder, plumbers, electricians etc) are called traders, I've never heard anyone use the word "tradesman".

Indeed the status of working for yourself and running a business is known as being a "sole trader": https://www.gov.uk/become-sole-trader

Yes, but as I understand it, being a "sole trader" is different from being a "tradesperson". If you're an employed plumber, or you're a plumber with your own limited company, then you're a tradesperson but not a sole trader. If you do web sites or IT support on your own and without having set up a limited company then you're a sole trader but not a tradesperson.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#76

Post by michaelt »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #18

How is this still happening? We discovered this in Canada in the 1970's. Except in our case, the Urea Formaldehyde foam was giving off formaldehyde gas.

In the UK, the construction industry has a great many cowboys, incompetents and scam artists. There's a lot of demand, so the market doesn't force these people out of business. And the courts can't do much if it turns out the guy gave you a fake name and address - or if the company that did the work went bankrupt.

And we've long had governments that take a hands-off, laissez-faire attitude - expecting the market to sort things out. As they see it, this insulation can be done properly, building owners chose to buy it, why ban a promising new green technology when the UK has millions of under-insulated homes and an energy price crisis?

Similarly, the UK has a load of tower blocks clad in flammable insulation after vendors Kingspan and Celotex scammed their way through fire safety testing - but somehow all the people who made money off it have disappeared and the taxpayer has to pay to remediate it.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#77

Post by yobbo »

jordanb wrote: post #71
lm28469 wrote: post #48

Spray foam sounds good at first but it's almost always complete trash. Nasty chemicals, 0 ventilation, poor humidity management, pain in the ass to remove. It's one of these things poor people get because it's cheap upfront but in the end it'll cost you twice as much as a proper insulation system It's easy to apply and looks cool so that's good for instagram builders/remodelers, plus they'll probably be out of busine…

I have an interest in metal boats and in the 70s-80s it was common to spray foam these vessels. This pretty much always caused premature end of life due to corrosion. There's a whole class of corrosion in metal structures called Corrosion Under Insulation or CUI. This is a problem for any insulated metal structure, but it is way worse with spray foam because the foam traps moisture very effectively, when it breaks do…

Some fibreglass boats are still filled with spray-foam, and it has the known effects of eventually causing rot to any wood that might be embedded in the fibreglass. Embedded plywood is much less common nowadays though.

(The foam cores in modern fibreglass construction is PVC-based, moisture safe, and can not be sprayed.)

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#78

Post by jordanb »

sbradford26 wrote: post #61
simfoo wrote: post #28

I'm into watching construction videos on Youtube, and since most of the content originates from the US I see lots of people using spray foam insulation without any sort of air-tight & moisture regulating membrane on the inside (behind the drywall for example). This is a disaster waiting to happen in almost all northern climates during winter (when AC/de-humidification isn't running) for the same reasons outlined in t…

It depends on what type of spray foam you use. Closed cell foam is rated to be a moisture barrier. It tends to be more expensive but is worth it to get a moisture barrier and insulation in one. In some scenarios where you need much thicker insulation to hit your desired R value they might start with closed cell for the moisture barrier and then switch to open cell since it is cheaper.

Closed cell foam will trap moisture underneath it. When sprayed on wood which is naturally moist that water will have nowhere to go. Any delaminations of the foam from the substrate will form pockets where wet will concentrate, and as the foam breaks down it becomes acidic.

If I were to sprayfoam something I would only consider using open cell foam. If I were to use other impervious zero-perm insulation materials like rockwool I'd only do so with dimple board to allow air underneath. The small loss of efficiency is a necessary tradeoff for giving the moisture which will always be there a path to escape.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#79

Post by bluGill »

markphip wrote: post #73

This is shocking and confusing. In the US if you watch HGTV and Mike Holmes, who works in Canada, all they do is talk about how great spray foam is and that is the gold standard. To the point I have had major FOMO for years because I do not have it. Reading this article and the comments here ... I do not want to think, other than being glad it was too expensive to consider.

Foam is expensive, and thus for the same profit margin (expressed as a percent) there is more money. Foam thus puts a lot of money into shows like that for advertisement.

Closed cell foam is the best insulation - if it is installed correctly. You should want it as it is the best insulation. However the payoff is several decades vs much cheaper insulation and so most people find it isn't worth the costs.

In general, for most houses, putting in the most cheap insulation you can, and then investing in a heat pump is the most bang for the buck and better for the earth than the most foam you can and then using a much less efficient HVAC system (in a new house this is typically what code requires, but there are a lot of old houses with minimal insulation and a terrible furnace).

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