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Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

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Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#51

Post by jeltz »

rvense wrote: post #39
nequo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's … gender identity So the use of he/she is banned by those projects?

Not like that. A pull request that replaced "he" in documentation with "they" was closed with the comment "This project is not the place to advocate your personal politics".

Yeah, that was a pointlessly rude way to close the PR since it assumed ill intent. But tiny pull requests like that are rarely helpful since the one reviewing it will need to check what pronouns are used in the rest of the documentation to make sure the style is consistent so they just create busywork for maintainers even though those PRs are almost always done in good faith.

I definitely do not think he was leading by example here. Making assumptions aabout why people do PRs and denying them based on those is a good way to create a toxic community.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#52

Post by okr »

pjmlp wrote: post #3
peppermint_gum wrote: post #2

One thing I don't understand about Swift is why it uses a private fork of LLVM. Why can't they upstream whatever changes they need?

Because the same also applies to clang, and contrary to what people think, Apple like every other big tech, is only as nice to FOSS as they need to be for their own purposes. Same applies to all C and C++ compiler vendors, that have replaced their proprietary compilers (there are plenty more than just clang/gcc/msvc), with LLVM. Such is the freedom of Apache/MIT/BSD style licenses.

I would not say its about niceness, its more about necessities. If ya don't own something, the walls are high to have anything changed, naturally. Because it might not be aligned with what the owner has had in it's mind. And you want to move quickly. So you fork and apply your changes. But i also think, in the long run, it hurts, bcs at some point, you forks are too diverged. But so is life.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#53

Post by [deleted] »

BoredPositron wrote: post #10
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

He's not wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#54

Post by [deleted] »

anon-3988 wrote: post #29
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

> - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs Interesting observation...I have the exact opposite experience. Rust is especially amazing for long last program because you spend twice as much time developing it and then forget about it for the rest of your lives until you have to change something. And just by browsing the code, a flood of contexts come in because its expressed in the lan…

[deleted]

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#55

Post by pjmlp »

Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

As someone that likes Rust, but is decades away from the days I identified myself with any specific language, the Rust Evangelism Strike Force are the ones that spoil the party.

That is exactly the way to put off people, that initially could even be welcoming to hear about what the language is all about.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#57

Post by arresin »

rvense wrote: post #31
LoganDark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

You are purposefully taking a wild assumption to frame his character a certain way because of your politics.

This is literally the kind of toxic divisiveness he’s talking about. Can’t you see how this makes people want to have nothing to do with this issue?

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#58

Post by stephc_int13 »

I think this kind of reckless move is likely to be very costly and could even jeopardize the success of this project.

I would say the same thing with any languages switch, except C and C++ as they tend to mix well and coders are usually familiar with both.

But Swift is, in my opinion, the worst possible choice. It is known to be a mess, even criticized by its original maker.

The compilation times are horrendous and nobody in the team is a Swift expert.

When making large architecture decisions on such a complex and difficult project, the people in charge should use all their mental energy on that task, not exploring new idioms or styles.

The only valid explanation that I can think of is that they are being funded to promote Swift.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#59

Post by ramon156 »

BoredPositron wrote: post #10
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

He's not wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is true that the community is toxic, but I myself haven't really seen it

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#60

Post by fidotron »

Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

The key rust problem relates to:

- Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B

- Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs

To rust purists the latter should be solved through composition of many of the former. This is what happens when constantly going on about the evils of state becomes one of your cultural norms.

That said I recently poked swift for non mac use and was not impressed by the status quo, and am not sure Apple are committed to the exercise. The core language is very nice though.

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