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Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

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Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#31

Post by rvense »

LoganDark wrote: post #13
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#32

Post by Spivak »

ayhanfuat wrote: post #24
LoganDark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

There was a big fight on Twitter last month because of a comment he made 3 years ago ( https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 ). I think that's closely related.

This is such a weird thread, sure it's a nit but grammatically a person of unknown sex should be either "he or she" or "they." And the latter is by far the preferred form by English writers regardless of political affiliation. It didn't become a political thing until Andreas made it political.

It would have taken two seconds to be like "+1 Good catch man, merged."

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#33

Post by Decabytes »

pas wrote: post #21
BoredPositron wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not wrong.

can you please substantiate in which points and how right he is? do you have experience with complex object graphs in Rust, direct or indirect experience about the community? thanks!

This huge blog post goes over some of the challenges of using Rust. https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/

For the community I'll pluck out this paragraph

> That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you get good enough things will make sense". This is not just with Rust, if you try using ECS you're told the same thing. If you try to use Bevy you'll be told the same thing. If you try to make GUIs with whichever framework you choose (be it one of the reactive solutions or immediate mode), you'll be told the same thing. The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough.

I've experienced this same feedback when I was struggling with Rust. One time when I posted in the Rust subreddit about it seeking help and talking about my struggles, I got the unhelpful response of "I believe in people" as a dismissive response to my struggles. Admittedly this was years ago and I've since moved on from Rust, but the blog post is dated from 2024-04-26, so it appears the issues with the language still remain

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#34

Post by odiroot »

Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

I'm really glad someone prominent has stated that.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#35

Post by hypeatei »

neonsunset wrote: post #28

It is unfortunate that Ladybird did not choose C#, being another high-level-adjacent C family language with strong systems programming capabilities crucial in browser development. It has smaller AOT binary size, faster application code performance and much bigger ecosystem of GUI libraries and native GUI library bindings (everything you have in C and C++ you pretty much have in C#) which can be used with very low ove…

I think most are just ignorant of what .NET is today vs 10-15 years ago. From my own personal findings, most on HN and general online dev space think it's Windows only and that hasn't been true for ~8 years or so. Microsoft has shifted to an open source approach for almost everything and Linux & Mac are first class citizens.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#36

Post by nequo »

rvense wrote: post #31
LoganDark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

> not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's … gender identity

So the use of he/she is banned by those projects?

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#37

Post by blinkingled »

Seems premature. You don't write successful browser engines using relatively new language that is optimized for one platform.

But it was predictable - Andreas comes from Apple background so.. The other thing is no one can build a browser alone - the ability to attract the right people is what differentiates a mainstream usable browser and a toy one. IOW focusing on adding another language that is not as popular amongst the right developer demographic seems like the wrong thing to focus on at this stage.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#38

Post by eviks »

Sakos wrote: post #18
LoganDark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

It doesn't matter if only a portion is toxic, because that portion can easily poison the well all on their own for everybody.

It does matter because there is a portion that is toxic in about any sizeable community, so following that logic all wells would be easily poisoned

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#39

Post by rvense »

nequo wrote: post #36
rvense wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

> not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's … gender identity So the use of he/she is banned by those projects?

Not like that. A pull request that replaced "he" in documentation with "they" was closed with the comment "This project is not the place to advocate your personal politics".

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#40

Post by pjmlp »

peppermint_gum wrote: post #14
pjmlp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the same also applies to clang, and contrary to what people think, Apple like every other big tech, is only as nice to FOSS as they need to be for their own purposes. Same applies to all C and C++ compiler vendors, that have replaced their proprietary compilers (there are plenty more than just clang/gcc/msvc), with LLVM. Such is the freedom of Apache/MIT/BSD style licenses.

Swift's LLVM fork is open-source, just not upstreamed. No Free Software license requires forks to upstream their changes. https://github.com/swiftlang/llvm-project

Yet you're complaining that they are using the licence exactly as they feel like.
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