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Three month suspension for Python core developer

discuss.python.org

31–40 of 94 posts

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#31
Codes of conduct all feature worthiness being assessed by a small group of special individuals who then declare judgement without rationale.

There are competing political systems to that one. The CoC enthusiasts are (likely to be) based in democratic systems so ignorance is not their reason for choosing this structure.

A couple of groups I'm involved with have gone down the mandatory code of conduct route. I do not feel safer with a mechanism for summary execution in place.

Specifically if I disagree with one of the chosen, they can solve that disagreement by excommunication. Thus when one of them spews insane nonsense the project tends to take damage instead of discussing saner alternatives. Worse, the connections of friendship / nepotism can be hard to detect from outside the inner circle, so disagreeing with anyone might be game over. Thus the system rots. But at least it gave power to the few for a period of time.

My primary takeaway from this particular case is that Tim seems more reasonable than the governing board so I'm less likely to use Python in future - both because squashing discussion usually leads to technical decay and because the project as a whole looks more likely to implode over time.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#32
post #27

> Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt... > Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. So simply having an opinion and expressing it cou…

The thread is here: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... The person in question is Tim Peters. It’s weird to not name them, but not linking to the thread is appropriate.

I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g.

> Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s experience: votes were usually unanimous. If there’s reasonable disagreement, under most systems of juistice that favors the accused

Initial impression to an outsider is that python's council is in the wrong here. Read a fair amount of that thread now and Tim seems pretty reasonable to me. Which does align with my mistrust of CoC structures I suppose.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread is here: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... The person in question is Tim Peters. It’s weird to not name them, but not linking to the thread is appropriate.

I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g. > Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s…

This is of course one specific point out of the 10 listed points, and not the sole reason that the ban was implemented.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#34
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g. > Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s…

This is of course one specific point out of the 10 listed points, and not the sole reason that the ban was implemented.

That list is all pretty vague.

That the tipping point seems to be disagreeing with expanding powers of the council is suspicious.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#35
I haven't read the thread/s yet but this kind of thing always sets off an alarm in my head, lots of programmers are basically socially retarded in many ways, what happens if the bar for exclusion starts to drop?

I also don't like the "the battle ground for the ideology of tomorrow is this programing forum!" mindset but that's slightly deeper.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#37
post #13
post #9

Tim Peters, author of timsort and longtime Python contributer, is a graybeard spaz like Stallman: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... I know this type, they definitely know how to belabor a point, and their language can be "colorful". I read through a bunch of comments, and on a scale from 0 to Terry Davis, Tim seems like a 1 or 2, annoying and crotchety but well-meaning and mild-mannered…

Somehow using Terry Davis as the top-end of your scale is quite funny, but I suppose accurate.

its not useful, I can't tell what a 1 or a 2 is if I don't know the value of "Terry Davis". 1 or 2 is bad if "Terry Davis" is 3 but we don't know that.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You say "OF COURSE" but it doesn't take long to encounter the argument that racism is "prejudice plus power." It's a classic motte and bailey. I know what you're trying to imply with your comment, but again, you can't have it both ways.

So only white people have power? I doubt that's true for most countries in the world. Hell the president of the United States was black not that long ago.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#40
I agree that preventing "ideological takeover" is a good aim.

But I think most people don't see the main issue: ideological takeovers can happen both for the side you're rooting for and for the opposite sides.

Both ideological far-right and ideological far-left people can attempt a takeover.

It's in the best interest of everybody to try and prevent any ideological takeover.

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