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The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

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Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#51

Post by jamager »

The many ways in which Duolingo is unethical and abusive derive from the simple fact that if it actually worked, even the slightest, then you would stop using the thing and cashing them $$$

For me the worst is that when you indulge, you feel bad and will do something; but with Duolingo you are still indulging the same, however it makes you feel accomplished and that you made your work.

No, you didn't — You just watched the ads they wanted you to watch. Doing nothing is literally better than Duolingo.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#52

Post by landosaari »

djeastm wrote: post #26

I'm a former military linguist who was trained to learn Arabic. I've always disliked and distrusted Duolingo (and before that, Rosetta Stone), for providing people the basics (which they do just fine) but making it seem like fluency is always just one more upgrade or lesson around the corner while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet. Even for the most talented learners of languages i…

[dead]

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#54

Post by ryukoposting »

anonfornoreason wrote: post #36
ryukoposting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Duolingo for the exact reasons you don't. I want to learn a language, and I will need to know the basics to be able to talk to people on my honeymoon next year. What you see as "nagging" I see as "holding me accountable to a goal I've set for myself." I can definitely see why you'd want to be able to dial back the notifications, though. On principle, I'd usually be on your side in this kind of situation. But a…

If it’s important, why cede control of your own discipline to a notification loop of a for-profit company? A technique I like to use is to wake up an hour early everyday and do some studying before anyone else is awake. Making dedicated time for something is like making a commitment to myself. Strengthens my ability to do it each time, feels more like I am in control. Awesome to be learning something new either way t…

I started writing this before you updated your comment. I'm glad I saw the change, because I was going to reply with a similar level of snark!

In my case, I'm learning German. My wife already knows a good bit of German (which she learned in "real" classes, not Duolingo) so I have a captive practice buddy. We speak German with each other sometimes, and she has coached me through some things Duolingo can't - like properly articulating the German "ch" sound.

I like your approach, by the way - it's almost exactly what I use for my photography. I wake up with the sun, about 2 hours before my wife, and I go make photos.

The thing about HN comment threads is that you don't know who anyone is. So, the natural(?) assumption ends up being that anyone who disagrees with you is the perfect strawman for your own side of the argument. In my case, I have a support structure outside of Duolingo, I have an active interest in taking my learning outside the app...

and I still find the gamification and notifications helpful. I just don't feel very motivated some days, but I still get a few lessons in! Something in me wants to be high up on that leaderboard. Is this the healthiest way to harness behavioral psychology to learn a language? I don't know, I'm not a psychologist. In any case, I'm practicing German every day, and that's pretty cool.

With Duolingo, I think the ends justify the means. FWIW you can turn off the notifications in your phone's settings, and emails are easy to direct to junk/spam/whatever black hole you prefer.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#55

Post by LoganDark »

anonfornoreason wrote: post #36
ryukoposting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Duolingo for the exact reasons you don't. I want to learn a language, and I will need to know the basics to be able to talk to people on my honeymoon next year. What you see as "nagging" I see as "holding me accountable to a goal I've set for myself." I can definitely see why you'd want to be able to dial back the notifications, though. On principle, I'd usually be on your side in this kind of situation. But a…

If it’s important, why cede control of your own discipline to a notification loop of a for-profit company? A technique I like to use is to wake up an hour early everyday and do some studying before anyone else is awake. Making dedicated time for something is like making a commitment to myself. Strengthens my ability to do it each time, feels more like I am in control. Awesome to be learning something new either way t…

> If it’s important, why cede control of your own discipline to a notification loop of a for-profit company?

What makes you think all minds are equally capable of controlling their own discipline? (look up executive dysfunction)

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#56

Post by jghn »

barrell wrote: post #46
djeastm wrote: post #26

I'm a former military linguist who was trained to learn Arabic. I've always disliked and distrusted Duolingo (and before that, Rosetta Stone), for providing people the basics (which they do just fine) but making it seem like fluency is always just one more upgrade or lesson around the corner while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet. Even for the most talented learners of languages i…

> while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet It's disappointing to me how many people try learning a language with Duolingo, do not succeed, then just "accept" that they're "bad with languages" and "can't learn them".

I use Duo every day, but understand and accept its limitations. It's free, it fits into my schedule, and I do move forward albeit slowly.

After about 2 years with my language I'm able to read at around an A2/B1 level. Listening is hit or miss in the A1/A2 level. It depends a lot on the speaker. But I can't speak at all, clearly my brain hasn't rewired itself to think on the fly like that.

But that's fine. For me.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#57

Post by jghn »

aswerty wrote: post #8

If the features of Duolingo are available in another app (i.e. their various memorization techniques, vocabulary building, various interactive learning, etc.) that doesn't gamify or nag. Let me know since I really detest these aspects of Duolingo. I succumbed to paying for the app since it is virtually unusable with the frequency of ads on the freemium model. They are a very dislikable brand.

It's not the ads that bother me it's the heart model. I use the website, not the app. About a year and change ago they transitioned to the hearts. The amount I use Duo every day dropped by about half as once I'm out of hearts for the day I stop.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#58

Post by TheDong »

aswerty wrote: post #8

If the features of Duolingo are available in another app (i.e. their various memorization techniques, vocabulary building, various interactive learning, etc.) that doesn't gamify or nag. Let me know since I really detest these aspects of Duolingo. I succumbed to paying for the app since it is virtually unusable with the frequency of ads on the freemium model. They are a very dislikable brand.

Resources for things like vocabulary building and such will vary by your target language.

However, the "memorization techniques" of most language apps really boil down to "spaced repetition" (SRS) of some form, which is basically doing reps, and having the space between reps increase over time as you remember them better.

Anki and Mochi are two spaced repetition systems (which will require you to create or find your own flashcards, but will take care of spacing out when to review them), and if you google for spaced repetition software targeting your target language, you'll probably find other alternatives too.

I personally find Anki to be a joy of a piece of software, and after using it for 5 years I have no intention of stopping or switching to another SRS app.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#59

Post by [deleted] »

jghn wrote: post #56
barrell wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet It's disappointing to me how many people try learning a language with Duolingo, do not succeed, then just "accept" that they're "bad with languages" and "can't learn them".

I use Duo every day, but understand and accept its limitations. It's free, it fits into my schedule, and I do move forward albeit slowly. After about 2 years with my language I'm able to read at around an A2/B1 level. Listening is hit or miss in the A1/A2 level. It depends a lot on the speaker. But I can't speak at all, clearly my brain hasn't rewired itself to think on the fly like that. But that's fine. For me.

[deleted]

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#60

Post by watwut »

carstenhag wrote: post #31
watwut wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cant learn foreign language from a book. Or, very very few people ever succeeded to learn basics of reading and write in foreign language from a book. And you can not possibly learn listening and talking.

Why can't you? As someone else already said, it's a combination. I'm learning french and I'm enjoying A1/A2-specific books and newspapers (Zeit Sprachen, idk if something like this exists in other countries)

Because it does not have sounds, simple as that.
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