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Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

belenios.org

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Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#251
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forget about showing up physically, it's noble to think of "you really care" but in places with organized crime they have ways to count if those that depend on them come and vote for their "right" choice. It has been estimated that around 20-30% of IRL votes in Italy follow the organized crimes choice.

Please forget about showing up physically because conflating l caring* with your ability to do things physically is ableist as fuck, and not all disabilities are visible and/or certifiable. Please forget about showing up physically because setting up a polling station in a place where there's effectively no public transportation cuts off poor people from voting. Please forget about showing up physically because mail…

Here in Argentina, in some places there were a few types of fraud, for example chain voting. (I can't find local case, but see [1] [2].) People can be paid or coerced to participate in such a scheme.

The solution was that you get a signed envelope when you enter, go to a isolated room alone and put the ballot inside and they verify the signatures of the closed envelope before you vote.

With remote voting, nobody can check that people is alone when voting.

[1] https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/67486/what-is-cha...

[2] https://english.atlatszo.hu/2022/04/05/this-is-how-chain-vot...

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this will be prevented when these private keys will be part of the national IDs, similar to how Estonia and other European countries do it. If there's a "national registry of citizens" comprised of public keys, I think it will be easy to organize ballots on top of that.

The government can issue fake IDs and vote in their name. Especially in countries where there are many migrants who receive citizenship, you can easily issue some extra IDs and nobody notices.

This attack vector is no different with paper ballots.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#253
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a simple trust problem. No one is counting all ballots in the entire country, they trust others to do so, and do so in a truthful manner. Same for machines, they’ll have to trust that some people did their job and checked these machines. Not saying this will happen any time soon though ;)

No, that's wrong. Democracy is a process involving the entire population of a country. A vote must be a process carried out by individual citizens to be trustworthy; if we delegate that to machines maintained by the government—because nobody else would be able to do so both trustable and professional—we'd create an incentive for the government to manipulate the system to stay in power. If, in turn, elections are orga…

> an incentive for the government to manipulate the system to stay in power.

Plenty of incentives and options even with paper ballots, as many dictators have shown.

> distributed, local, and highly public countings

Why wouldn’t this be possible with machines?

> We cannot hand control over the vote to the government

If you trust the people checking the machines have not been manipulated, this is not at all what would be happening.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#254
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One question: How would a machine have to look that you use in a high stakes process, that someone else (potentially your adversary) purchases and setups and that you and the majority of the electorate can be able to trust? Elections with paper ballots are somewhat straightforward in that regard. Any party member that doesn't trust the process can literally apply to check part of it and be able to see for themselves…

> But the few experts that are able to verify the process and have the computer knowledge It sounds like you are not familiar with the concept of verifiability or more precisely E2E-V for evoting systems that can be attained. The goal is to never trust the software that is running the machines or officials and thoose are kept accountable with a public cryptographic evidence produced along with final tally. They still…

Example: in France you get a certificate of vote and a hash that can be looked up to verify your vote is counted, as well as verify what your vote hasn’t been modified. No one else get this, only you.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#255
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in your thesis you make some interesting points on how E-Voting systems differ. But I have critizism. Let me paraphrase your points: 1. Paper ballots are in some ways more ambigous, because there are many ways to scribble a sign into a circle, a fraction of which will not result in the intended outcome 2. Understanding these handwritten symbols is harder than understanding the electronic system, because of th…

You speak as if I'm advocating for e-voting systems over paper voting systems. I'm not. In general, most paper voting systems that are used in practice are more secure than most e-voting systems that are used in practice. > 1. Paper ballots are in some ways more ambigous, because there are many ways to scribble a sign into a circle, a fraction of which will not result in the intended outcome Look, I tried to cover al…

> You speak as if I'm advocating for e-voting systems over paper voting systems. I'm not. In general, most paper voting systems that are used in practice are more secure than most e-voting systems that are used in practice.

Keep in mind that my point was specifically about high stakes elections and you reacted to it without making that limitation. Don't you think my conclusion about your comment follows kind of naturally from that context? I also would argue there is a niche for E-voting to exist, but it is the responsibility of us technically literate to make it very clear for which purposes it is not suitable and why.

> There are big issues, like a foreign superpower attempting to hack the results, and then there are small issues, like this one: people accidentally spoiling ballots.

The slowness and amount of people needed for the paper ballot is a feature not a bug as it makes wide scale attacks extremely complex, labour intensive and risky AND regular people (those that need to believe in the results!) can understand what is going on if they want to. This comes at the cost that the correctness of the result can be not always guarantueed. A huge number of spoiled ballots isn't necessarily a sign that people don't understand how to make a cross, it is a sign of protest and used as such.

> Fully paper system. You walk into a voting booth. You scribble down the number "7" on paper. You walk out of the booth and put the paper in the ballot box. Later some election official is counting the votes and they look at your scribble and they wonder, hmm, is this a "7" or is this a "1". Your vote is disqualified.

I have never seen an election where a vote isn't ticking or checking a ballot box, maybe this is different in Finland? Also: The elections I voted in, in 2 different countries always came with precise pictured instruction how a valid vote looks like and what would be invalid. I am not sure if I should be worried about the vote of people who fail to put an X into a box when given pictured instructions. This is a weakness with one specific implementation of a paper ballot, not a inherent weakness of the system. If we are to look for a good comparison we should compare the best way to do paper based elections to the best way to do it digitally and draw our comparisons from that.

> See how B) is exactly the same system as A) except it offers voters the ability to see how their vote is going to be interpreted, before they cast the vote into the ballot box?

This isn't without it's own risk either. Having worked with computer vision systems and programmed them I can tell you there is no 100% guarantuee that the result that air-gapped machine showed the voter in the voting both is the same as what is reached later – not even if we assume the exact same machine to be used for the count. Also: That isn't necessarily what I'd call a E-Voting system.

> That said, it sounds to me like you are imagining all electronic voting schemes to be "black box" schemes relying on blindly trusting both authorities and computers

No you get me wrong. What I said is that for the majority of the electorate it would be that way. I can readily imagine building an electronic voting system that I can trust – and maybe even one where independent experts would trust it. But that is the easy part. The hard part is building a system into which the bloke from the pub that struggled with undergraduate math and stopped thinking about it since he left school two decades ago can trust. And not just by trusting an authority, but by checking for himself.

As much as I like the idea and challenge of such projects, I can't help put think that the inclusion of those who are less capable to understand is worth more than the potential gains in efficiency or interface-correctness of E-voting systems – especially if the fate of nations hinge on the fact that people trust it.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#256
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. The system must be something a bottom 15 percentile person can understand and doesn’t think is magic. https://youtu.be/DUZa7qIGAdo?si=RDsgH2uIKb8k7ueG

My opinion is that IT literacy is increasing fast enough that in the near future a significant percentage would understand enough about electronic ballots as people understand now about the paper ballots. And I think you're over estimating how many people "understand" paper ballots. Yes, they know the basics, but the details on how votes are counted, validated and secured might be a bit too much for a random Joe.

"Voter literacy" is obviously a good thing; but blockchain and encryption are not part of that. Very few software developers, for example, are qualified to evaluate a crypto scheme.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the few experts that are able to verify the process and have the computer knowledge It sounds like you are not familiar with the concept of verifiability or more precisely E2E-V for evoting systems that can be attained. The goal is to never trust the software that is running the machines or officials and thoose are kept accountable with a public cryptographic evidence produced along with final tally. They still…

Example: in France you get a certificate of vote and a hash that can be looked up to verify your vote is counted, as well as verify what your vote hasn’t been modified. No one else get this, only you.

This is somewhat unrelated to what I posted, but interesting. At what time does voters get this hash? Is it after the cast their vote in which cases why wouldn’t coerces/bribers ask it as receipt that voters had cast their vote in a certain way?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#259
post #235

Personally I think the biggest flaw in any online voting system is that a network-connected computing device cannot be trusted by any party. Email inbox can not be trusted or verified. Such a simplistic online voting would never stand a chance against malicious actors who are somewhat more sophisticated and creative. The future of paper voting can be something like a quick fingertip-actuated DNA sequencer which will…

> The future of paper voting can be something like a quick fingertip-actuated DNA sequencer which will imprint your DNA hash right into the paper ballot,

This would mean the end to the secret vote.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#260
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you agree that there needs to be something that keeps reinforcing the collective trust in the voting system such that this worst case scenario is not reached? If so, do you have an idea what that something could be when using a complex e-voting system? The best I can come up is to educate the public, but that is almost wishful thinking. rraghur says in the siblilng comment that keeping the voting systme open v…

Of course there needs to be some level of public trust in the elections. I think that trust could come from the E2E verifiability of the voting system, and related to that, trust in the ability of independent experts to verify that the election was conducted fairly. (When the result of an election is verifiable by third parties, there is no longer a need to audit what software is running on the official machines, so…

It is possible, at least in principle, to have people trust that techonolgies such as E2E are secure and reliable. Indeed in some countries that is the case, but my point was slightly different.

If you concede that we cannot have everyone understand (to take an example) E2E verifiability, then this technology cannot justify its own correctness to everyone. This means it is necessary to have a (possibly small) group of experts to educate / persuade the public that E2E verifiability actually works.

But my point is essentially: why should they do it? There is no structural incentive for them to do so, other than the virtue of being a good citizen. There needs to be something that keeps reinforcing public trust. Self-evident systems do not require for this incentive structure to exist / be built.

I fear that this could end up becoming akint to the erosion of trust in scientific evidence for political decisionmaking. Science was considered very trustworthy by most people at some point, but because there is little to no incentive for the scientists to inform the public about why what they do works (other than perhaps their personal desire to share the cool thing they are working on) and because scientific results are usually very complex there has been a pretty steady decline in trusting scientific evidence.

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