Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis
> It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. I don't agree. This is plausible within a coesive electorate, but it feels like moving the problem. What guarantees that the experts are trusted by the voters? And more importantly, assuming that at some point the system (experts) is trusted, how is the trust in the voting system retained over time…
Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
221–230 of 307 posts
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if lots of experts come out that way, including people you already trust otherwise? Eg assume both Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds etc say they have reviewed the code?
If we assume that: - how do you know the code running on these machines on day X is actually the code they tested? - how do you know the code running does the same thing the code they tested does, even if it is the same code (e.g. hardware instructions could be doing different things on the machine, the OS could provide different functionality, other programs could interfere)? - how do you (and for that matter: every…
You asked "how do you know your vote was counted". You can google for examples of how this works in verifiable voting systems.
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis
It's not enough. It's not enough at all. Experts are easily compromised. The system by which power is transferred from the people to representatives needs to be literally self-evident. Any system that the "average voter" cannot understand should be literally unconstitutional. Deviating from this puts the results of all elections in doubt. People will question the results, and they will have a point because the system…
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
> (Heck, this attack already works to some extent with the current, extremely transparent system of ballots) Exactly, so the rest of your criticism isn't nearly as strong, if it applies to all means of voting.
Huh? That is not how this works. For a high stakes election I would take the most trustworthy system. So give me an argument why I should invest money into building a less trustworthy one? Because it I get results faster? I don't care about speed, high stakes elections are rare enough for that not to matter. Because it is more efficient? I don't care about efficiency, I want the result to be accurate and the process…
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
> (Heck, this attack already works to some extent with the current, extremely transparent system of ballots) Exactly, so the rest of your criticism isn't nearly as strong, if it applies to all means of voting.
Huh? That is not how this works. For a high stakes election I would take the most trustworthy system. So give me an argument why I should invest money into building a less trustworthy one? Because it I get results faster? I don't care about speed, high stakes elections are rare enough for that not to matter. Because it is more efficient? I don't care about efficiency, I want the result to be accurate and the process…
My point was narrowly that most of the argument made in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41156898 applies to paper voting as well.
For what it's worth, I prefer paper ballots, but I don't think that makes all arguments for them automatically valid.
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#226One important thing about any voting system – digital or not – is that it has to be good at producing agreeable consent . That means bitter, betrayed and hurt (but reasonable/democratic!) losing parties need to be able to say: yeah we accept the result because we are confident in the outcome of the election. This is something all digital systems are really bad at, even if everything is readable and verifiable, unless…
Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#227One important thing about any voting system – digital or not – is that it has to be good at producing agreeable consent . That means bitter, betrayed and hurt (but reasonable/democratic!) losing parties need to be able to say: yeah we accept the result because we are confident in the outcome of the election. This is something all digital systems are really bad at, even if everything is readable and verifiable, unless…
Yea I guess the problem is with a party that is intent on disregarding truth or facts or verifiability or reality is not going to prevail against attacks against the system (unless it is rigged in their favor). What does code matter to them.
However no voting system is perfect and 100% consent is next to impossible to achieve. But for major, high stakes elections we have to take any tiny sliver of trust we can take, even if it is at the expense of getting results fast or cheap.
As a young nerd I would've said: "How hard can it be", as an older nerd I understand that the computer part is the easy part, getting people to be able to trust and follow the process is the hard part.
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis
I think in your thesis you make some interesting points on how E-Voting systems differ. But I have critizism. Let me paraphrase your points: 1. Paper ballots are in some ways more ambigous, because there are many ways to scribble a sign into a circle, a fraction of which will not result in the intended outcome 2. Understanding these handwritten symbols is harder than understanding the electronic system, because of th…
> 1. Paper ballots are in some ways more ambigous, because there are many ways to scribble a sign into a circle, a fraction of which will not result in the intended outcome
Look, I tried to cover all aspects of how the integrity of the voting results can be compromised. There are big issues, like a foreign superpower attempting to hack the results, and then there are small issues, like this one: people accidentally spoiling ballots.
I'm struggling to understand why you feel the need to attack this minor point in my thesis with words like "ridiculous", "disingenuous" and "unscientific". Accidental spoiling is a real issue that happens and I even have a photograph of an ambiguously marked ballot in my thesis.
> 2. Understanding these handwritten symbols is harder than understanding the electronic system, because of that ambiguity
I wrote in Appendix B about how accidental spoiling could be resolved by adding electronics, but _only_ adding them to fix this specific issue (_not_ replacing the whole voting scheme with black box computers that can be hacked). When you say "the electronic system", it sounds to me like you are imagining something more.
Let me try to illustrate this specific point from Appendix B.
A) Fully paper system. You walk into a voting booth. You scribble down the number "7" on paper. You walk out of the booth and put the paper in the ballot box. Later some election official is counting the votes and they look at your scribble and they wonder, hmm, is this a "7" or is this a "1". Your vote is disqualified.
B) Same system but augmented with simple electronics to prevent accidental spoiling. You walk into a voting booth. You scribble down the number "7" on paper. Inside the booth you insert your paper into a scanner which interprets your scribble and prints out a new paper that is supposed to contain your vote. You look at the new paper to verify how your vote is going to be interpreted and you see... what the heck, it's a "1"? Why is it a "1"? I wrote down "7"! So you take a new paper, and now you very clearly write down "7" on the new paper and scan it again. The computer now prints out a paper that has a "7" on it. Good. So now you walk out of the voting booth and then drop the paper with the computer-written "7" on it into the ballot box.
See how B) is exactly the same system as A) except it offers voters the ability to see how their vote is going to be interpreted, before they cast the vote into the ballot box? The machine inside the booth doesn't have to be connected to the internet and it doesn't have to do anything more complex than read a number on a paper and then print the same number. If somebody hacks the machine to "misinterpret" votes, it will be caught very fast.
> 4. Trust in voting systems does not primarily arise from understandability but from trust in other people.
> And as computers can be reprogrammed, potentially remotely, even your experts can't be sure – especially in elections where powerful nation state actors seek to destroy the public trust in your election. This is a problem – just claiming that it isn't doesn't cut it. And people who claim that it isn't should not be the ones designing such systems.
The whole point of a verifiable voting system is that you don't have to trust the election computers. Even if all the official computers are hacked by Russia, I can still run the data on my own machine to verify the results of the election. As long as there is one clean computer in the world and one nerd who cares, the truth will come out.
And I'm not "just claiming that it is [verifiable]" - I wrote a whole thesis on these voting schemes. I did my best to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each scheme and as you can see in the comparison table, each scheme does have their weaknesses. A "perfect" verifiable voting scheme does not exist. That said, it sounds to me like you are imagining all electronic voting schemes to be "black box" schemes relying on blindly trusting both authorities and computers, and that is not the case at all. I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with at least one of these "verifiable" voting schemes before criticizing them. If you are interested in further discussing the specific weaknesses of a specific scheme which incorporates some electronic aspects, I would suggest that you read the description of "Floating Receipts" scheme from my thesis and then we can discuss specifics of that if you like.
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis
The experts from Belenios do not recommend to use remote e-voting for high-stake elections [1]. Some issues they mention are the risks that the users sells their credentials or that a malware on their computer leaks who they voted for. [1]: https://www.belenios.org/faq.html
Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I haven’t seen evidence of that, and a quick googling for “2020 us ballot stuffing” doesn’t show me such
Did you try very hard? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXAp8My7Js
There were international observers in the 2020 election and they found no evidence of fraud [2], and many mainstream media sources that I hold reliable, (e.g. [3]) fact-check multiple claims of election fraud and nothing has showed up that would suggest that the election was "stolen".
I don't think it is at all preposterous to assume that the 2020 US election was fair, unless you subscribe to a view that the global mainstream media apparatus is in on some grand conspiracy.
[1] https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-election-ohio-ballots-...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia...