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DRM in the cinema

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Re: DRM in the cinema

#71

Post by shabble »

ken wrote: post #20

This is why I love analog, and not just in the sense of "I'm an old fart and old things are better" (though I'm sure there's a good dose of that), but because there's a whole spectrum between "working" and "not working". (Environmental issues aside, that is -- I recognize that the chemicals needed to manufacture and develop traditional film are pretty nasty.) With digital, if it works, it's 100%, which is great, but…

I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20 minutes. Everyone stayed, and we chose the latter (who wants to see a small movie in a theatre?), and I don't think it was the wrong choice, but I learned that changeovers are not like commercial breaks: some of them are in really inconvenient places in the film, plot-wise!

I might be misunderstanding something about cinema projection, but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation? The only things I can think of are perhaps it has some sort of cooling mechanism (I know the bulbs do emit massive quantities of heat) that needed a chance to cool off, or they were somehow playing it on a different projector which couldn't handle a full film-reel?

Certainly a more interesting experience than the few glitches I've encountered including "Yes, we know you've been complaining since the 3rd minute of playback that we had the aspect ratio wrong, but we're only going to fix it now, 70% of the way through the film"

Re: DRM in the cinema

#72

Post by jgroome »

shabble wrote: post #71
ken wrote: post #20

This is why I love analog, and not just in the sense of "I'm an old fart and old things are better" (though I'm sure there's a good dose of that), but because there's a whole spectrum between "working" and "not working". (Environmental issues aside, that is -- I recognize that the chemicals needed to manufacture and develop traditional film are pretty nasty.) With digital, if it works, it's 100%, which is great, but…

I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20…

> but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation?

I think a "proper" analogue theatre has two projectors. With the films split into reels, one reel is played through one projector, and then when it's time to switch to the next reel, the projectionist cues it up on the second projector, and then switches between the two. Like a DJ mixing records, I suppose.

So if one lens is broken, they need to stop the film, feed in the second reel, then carry on playing. Hence the 20 minute break.

I may be wrong about this. Other commenters seem to be former projectionists; I'm just some guy who's seen Fight Club ;)

Re: DRM in the cinema

#73

Post by abruzzi »

cdcarter wrote: post #29
trimbo wrote: post #13

Ex-VFX guy here again. I feel like I have to comment on these threads because I'm thrilled to see 35mm film die.[1] The DRM sucks but.... > There are instances in the US already where some studios are refusing to freight 35mm film prints to cinemas. Yeah, because it's crazy expensive . It costs ~$1500 to strike and ship a 35mm print[2]. Also, did you know that prints are delivered by some specialized delivery company…

I work for a group of venues that recently opened a film screening room that can handle almost all digital formats, 16mm, and 35mm prints. And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day. Though, they are super expensive to ship. Maybe it's a regional thing, the delivery? Here in Mass you need to be a licensed projectionist due to th…

A two hour film, on six or seven reels costs about $75-100 to ship. Larger release films are usually shipped to and from Technicolor, so there are two shippings per venue. Smaller release, independent films, the distributor usually has one venue shipping to the next, thereby halving then number of ships.

Film today is printed on mylar which isn't very flammable, prior to mylar, acetate was used (also known as safety film) and also wasn't flammable. Nitrate was discontinued in the 30's-40's and that was the scary stuff.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#74

Post by waterlesscloud »

trimbo wrote: post #24
wahnfrieden wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think there's a place for it in smaller / specialized venues for some time? It makes sense for mainstream Hollywood not to bother with it anymore, but I for one would appreciate to be able to see Bela Tarr on 35mm or Antonioni on 70mm again. I know many of these older prints are passed around too rather than struck per showing.

This is interesting, my interpretation of what they were saying was for _new_ prints. But in the case of old prints, I see your point. Long term, I hope this is self-correcting. People still like vinyl, and although you can't find a Tower Records anywhere on earth, you can find vinyl shops that are still doing really well. The same could end up being true for film-projecting theaters. My bias for digital probably clo…

A good, clean, new 35mm print is very clearly distinguishable from from a 4k projection. Even casually you can see the difference.

Not to mention how a good 70mm print looks. Or that a large percentage of screens aren't 4k but 2k.

4k is ok for me for most current releases. The difference is there, but I don't care too much. 2k is distracting.

But I cry at the idea of a rep house screening of 2001 even in 4k. Pay for that and you're being robbed.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#75

Post by strictfp »

anigbrowl wrote: post #11
smacktoward wrote: post #2

This is the part that made me cringe: The [DRM key] arrives as an email zip attachment that then needs to be unzipped, saved onto a memory stick and uploaded onto the server. Seriously? That's how we're delivering time-sensitive digital information? In 2012 ? Ugh, it makes my head spin. Is there some reason that the projector can't be connected to the network directly, so the vendor can push the key straight to it wi…

Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you ask a bunch of hackers how to make a mission-critical application secure, one of the top answers is going to be 'air gap.' In economic terms, security has greater value (to the publishers) than the mild inconvenience of a few shows starting late.

Maybe, but if they allow for usb sticks all that is undone. Sneakernet is hard to firewall.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#76

Post by aladds »

jgroome wrote: post #72
shabble wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20…

> but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation? I think a "proper" analogue theatre has two projectors. With the films split into reels, one reel is played through one projector, and then when it's time to switch to the next reel, the projectionist cues it up on the second projector, and then switches between the two. Like a DJ mixing records, I suppose. So if one lens is broken, they need to stop the fi…

This is exactly right; although not all "proper" theaters have two projectors. Where I work we have one and a "long play" tower which allows us to play the whole film with one projector.

Many still do run changeover systems, though.

(In case you're interested, I work in an indie cinema in the UK, and we're really scared about the costs of changing to digital, which we will need to do in the next 12 months)

Re: DRM in the cinema

#77

Post by raphman »

spdy wrote: post #4

This is fighting piracy on the wrong level. Some people must be so afraid that someone could copy their "work" that they put a chain on the most trusted place. The KDM unlocks the content of the file and allows the cinema to play the film. It is time sensitive and often is only valid from around 10 minutes prior to the screening time and expiring as close to 5 minutes after the scheduled time. This made me shiver...…

The DCI security specification was modeled explicitly to "control lightly, audit tightly" - exactly because technical problems would cause a lot of trouble to the cinemas.

Seems like this philosophy has not prevailed in the actual implementation...

Re: DRM in the cinema

#78

Post by astrodust »

wvenable wrote: post #39
astrodust wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the chance of a new Blu-Ray standard coming out that supports 4K is zero and given that the movies are already encoded in this format for the cinema, stands to reason these will get ripped, transcoded, and dumped on BitTorrent as soon as High-DPI screens become more common on computers. 1080p looks great and all, but 4K is simply stunning in comparison.

In your own home, with a standard 50" TV, would there actually be any visible difference between 1080p and 4K? Aren't we reaching the limits of human perception?

A 50" TV today is like a 15" computer screen was fifteen years ago. What about the future where you can pick up a 200" screen at Costco for $300?

1080p is decent enough for a ~50" TV, but for 60"+ you'd probably want 2K and for 100"+ you'd almost certainly appreciate 4K.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#79

Post by JackC »

This was the important part for me:

What I’d really like to leave you with here is the essence of how last night made us feel: the industry is shifting – not only its medium, not only its focus, but with it – and most significantly for theatres like us – it’s shifting the element of control. We’re in relationship with you, our audience, but it seems to me as though someone is trying to break us up.

So much of the problem with DRM, and the weirdness of copyright-based business models, is not logistic ("I want to watch the Matrix in HD now!") but aesthetic, artistic, moral: it feels wrong on a basic human level to thread your engagement with the culture through a maze of technical, legal, bureaucratic obeisance.

I've decided, personally, to do my best not to violate IP laws, because I don't want the moral hazard of arguing against a law while financially benefiting from violating it. I want my vision clear. But I can say with clear vision that there's something inhuman and anti-human about the scenario described in the article, and I hope we find a better way.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#80

Post by ken »

jgroome wrote: post #72
shabble wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20…

> but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation? I think a "proper" analogue theatre has two projectors. With the films split into reels, one reel is played through one projector, and then when it's time to switch to the next reel, the projectionist cues it up on the second projector, and then switches between the two. Like a DJ mixing records, I suppose. So if one lens is broken, they need to stop the fi…

Yes, this was my understanding as well.

On Youtube, if you search for words like "theatre projector changeover" there are some great videos of projectionists showing how it's done.

Apparently there are "platter" systems that let you splice all the reels together and project the entire film through one lens with no changeovers, but my story took place at least 15 years ago, and it was not a very big or modern theatre.

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