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DRM in the cinema

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Re: DRM in the cinema

#31

Post by cdcarter »

gizmo720 wrote: post #15
smacktoward wrote: post #2

This is the part that made me cringe: The [DRM key] arrives as an email zip attachment that then needs to be unzipped, saved onto a memory stick and uploaded onto the server. Seriously? That's how we're delivering time-sensitive digital information? In 2012 ? Ugh, it makes my head spin. Is there some reason that the projector can't be connected to the network directly, so the vendor can push the key straight to it wi…

I worked with the Tech crew in my high school theater department for a couple of years. There we explicitly removed network connectivity from from the sound/lighting computer to increase stability.

This is fairly standard. As mentioned down thread, an "air gap" is a huge safety measure for production computers. Lowers the likelihood of a virus infecting the machine, and if a botnet does get on there somehow, it still can't talk to C&C. You can't just have anti-virus running on your Watchout display machines or your SFX playback machine, that CPU load is awful. So we disconnect!

Re: DRM in the cinema

#32

Post by pilif »

tomsaffell wrote: post #23
quanticle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that in this case, you can't test. The only way to test is to load the movie, load a key and play the movie. No key? No movie, and no test. In addition, there is no way the distributor will let you have a "test" key. One of those would be manna from heaven for any unsavory projectionist who wanted to make high quality copies from theater prints.

No test key required. Inputting the actual key prior to the scheduled slot should cause the projector to show a randomly chosen 30 second segment of the movie, with an overlay message at the bottom saying, "Test projection - key valid starting at HH:MM on dd/mm/yy". This should work around 10 times. The overlay should be background-color: #000; opacity: 0.6; color: #fff.

In order to get an accurate prediction whether the presentation is going to work or not, the key must be valid for decrypting the whole movie. If it is, then it can provide no more piracy protection because then you would use it to decrypt the movie independently of the projection system.

If the key is only good to decrypt a random part of the movie, then the test says nothing about the success or failure of the key to decrypt the rest of the movie.

Tangentially related: what is to stop a technically inclined projectionist to use the key during the time it is valid to decrypt the movie?

I would assume that at presentation time, there is enough of decryption key material available to the projection system to cover all of the movie, otherwise a presentation would have to be interrupted as the cinemas internet goes down.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#33

Post by trimbo »

cdcarter wrote: post #29
trimbo wrote: post #13

Ex-VFX guy here again. I feel like I have to comment on these threads because I'm thrilled to see 35mm film die.[1] The DRM sucks but.... > There are instances in the US already where some studios are refusing to freight 35mm film prints to cinemas. Yeah, because it's crazy expensive . It costs ~$1500 to strike and ship a 35mm print[2]. Also, did you know that prints are delivered by some specialized delivery company…

I work for a group of venues that recently opened a film screening room that can handle almost all digital formats, 16mm, and 35mm prints. And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day. Though, they are super expensive to ship. Maybe it's a regional thing, the delivery? Here in Mass you need to be a licensed projectionist due to th…

> And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day

Huh. Go figure. Maybe things have changed. The only reference I've been able to find is on this page: http://business.highbeam.com/industry-reports/personal/servi...

Film delivery services, also known as film carriers, were usually classified under the transportation services industry, in particular SIC 4213: Trucking Except Local, but belonged under both classifications because of their unique services. Film carriers were specialized transportation companies serving the needs of motion picture theaters by delivering and picking up rented theatrical films. Film was transported between the cinemas and the national network of film exchanges, or film depots, or directly between theaters, based on their booking schedules. Metal canisters of 16mm or 35mm film were delivered to the theaters, usually on a weekly basis. Unlike other delivery services, film carriers had keys to the theaters they supplied so they could drop off and pick up film when the theater was closed. Most delivery was done by truck or van because of the heavy weight of the film canisters, which made them impractical for air freight, except in rush circumstances. Film carriers served only theaters, since other organizations that screened films tended to use the more easily transportable videotape format, or else had only occasional film needs, which could be handled by any non-specialized delivery service. There were fewer than 40 major film delivery companies throughout the country that served nearly the entire theater market. Most served up to a couple hundred theaters, some covering a region comprising several states. There were also a commensurate number of smaller film carriers that exclusively served single theater chains of around 15 to 20 theaters. Films generally weigh about 62 pounds, and are often accompanied by large cardboard stand-up displays and other promotional items theaters place in lobbies.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#34

Post by ditoa »

Groxx wrote: post #27
forrestthewoods wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, this seems to be the perfect place to fight piracy. At present time most movies do not have high quality releases until the blu-ray discs are manufactured. When a movie goes to blu-ray 720p and 1080p copies are instantly released online. Having those movies available online opening weekend, if not before opening weekend, could be disastrous.

They already are in quite a few circumstances. It hasn't collapsed the industry yet - there are other reasons to go to a movie theater than to see the movie. As a concrete example, there are tens of thousands of seeders of Prometheus right now at a couple sites I just checked. And quite a few people I know, who know exactly how to use torrents, went to see it in the theater.

Several thousand seeders of a CAM copy of Prometheus not a 1080p BluRay rip. Big difference!

Re: DRM in the cinema

#35

Post by cdcarter »

trimbo wrote: post #33
cdcarter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a group of venues that recently opened a film screening room that can handle almost all digital formats, 16mm, and 35mm prints. And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day. Though, they are super expensive to ship. Maybe it's a regional thing, the delivery? Here in Mass you need to be a licensed projectionist due to th…

> And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day Huh. Go figure. Maybe things have changed. The only reference I've been able to find is on this page: http://business.highbeam.com/industry-reports/personal/servi... Film delivery services, also known as film carriers, were usually classified under the transportation services industry…

They certainly do weigh that much. We have a regular delivery scheduled with FedEx, but we have to meet them at our lockbox and open it for them. We may be slightly different as we aren't primarily a film venue.

This is incredibly interesting though. How such specialized industries develop and evaporate.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#36

Post by wtracy »

pilif wrote: post #32
tomsaffell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No test key required. Inputting the actual key prior to the scheduled slot should cause the projector to show a randomly chosen 30 second segment of the movie, with an overlay message at the bottom saying, "Test projection - key valid starting at HH:MM on dd/mm/yy". This should work around 10 times. The overlay should be background-color: #000; opacity: 0.6; color: #fff.

In order to get an accurate prediction whether the presentation is going to work or not, the key must be valid for decrypting the whole movie. If it is, then it can provide no more piracy protection because then you would use it to decrypt the movie independently of the projection system. If the key is only good to decrypt a random part of the movie, then the test says nothing about the success or failure of the key…

That actually happens: Screenings have been interrupted because the internet connection to the projector gets cut. :-/

Re: DRM in the cinema

#37

Post by drawkbox »

Actually this is a better situation than getting a bad reel or worse not receiving the movie at all the day or two before release on film.

I used to manage a theatre and sometimes had issues (more often re-releases than new releases) for instance our copy of Pulp Fiction was missing a reel, had to wait days for another one to ship rather than just making a call. Sometimes movies came reeled backwards, missing reels, missing entire canisters with multiple reels, scratched reels etc. Digital removes all those distribution problems (and that is some heavy material). And not to mention the times when a platter would break and drop the entire film on the ground every now and again. I'd say digital has less problems.

I did have fun building movies on Thursday nights and watching them for quality but digital is much better in terms of distribution. The reel feeling will be missed though.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#38

Post by astrodust »

Groxx wrote: post #27
forrestthewoods wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, this seems to be the perfect place to fight piracy. At present time most movies do not have high quality releases until the blu-ray discs are manufactured. When a movie goes to blu-ray 720p and 1080p copies are instantly released online. Having those movies available online opening weekend, if not before opening weekend, could be disastrous.

They already are in quite a few circumstances. It hasn't collapsed the industry yet - there are other reasons to go to a movie theater than to see the movie. As a concrete example, there are tens of thousands of seeders of Prometheus right now at a couple sites I just checked. And quite a few people I know, who know exactly how to use torrents, went to see it in the theater.

Since the chance of a new Blu-Ray standard coming out that supports 4K is zero and given that the movies are already encoded in this format for the cinema, stands to reason these will get ripped, transcoded, and dumped on BitTorrent as soon as High-DPI screens become more common on computers.

1080p looks great and all, but 4K is simply stunning in comparison.

Re: DRM in the cinema

#39

Post by wvenable »

astrodust wrote: post #38
Groxx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already are in quite a few circumstances. It hasn't collapsed the industry yet - there are other reasons to go to a movie theater than to see the movie. As a concrete example, there are tens of thousands of seeders of Prometheus right now at a couple sites I just checked. And quite a few people I know, who know exactly how to use torrents, went to see it in the theater.

Since the chance of a new Blu-Ray standard coming out that supports 4K is zero and given that the movies are already encoded in this format for the cinema, stands to reason these will get ripped, transcoded, and dumped on BitTorrent as soon as High-DPI screens become more common on computers. 1080p looks great and all, but 4K is simply stunning in comparison.

In your own home, with a standard 50" TV, would there actually be any visible difference between 1080p and 4K? Aren't we reaching the limits of human perception?
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