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The New Internet

tailscale.com

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Re: The New Internet

#51

Post by IAmNotACellist »

ssss11 wrote: post #30
jclulow wrote: post #15

An incredibly long ramp up to complaining about centralised control by rent seekers (a very reasonable complaint!) which gets bogged down in some ostensibly unrelated shade about whether client-server computing makes sense (it does) or is itself somehow responsible for the rent seeking (it isn't; you can seek rent on proprietary peer to peer systems as well!) to then arrive at: > There’s going to be a new world of ha…

Lol. The tailscale CEO is preaching “tomorrow you’ll have or not have Tailscale. And if you don’t, you won’t be able to run apps that only work in a post-Tailscale world.”?? That won’t go down well in 10 years if they don’t become Microsoft-scale juggernauts.

Or they'll just get bought by Microsoft, Amazon, or Cloudflare and that'll be that

I like Tailscale just because it's OpenVPN without the unbearable agony of setting it up so it actually works

Re: The New Internet

#52

Post by intelVISA »

imiric wrote: post #8

I like Tailscale, but this reads as too self-aggrandizing. You have a mesh VPN product with some value-added services on top of it. That's great, but this idea isn't novel or unique. Why should your solution be the "new internet" instead of any of the alternatives? I wouldn't want to rely on a single company for all my internet infrastructure, anyway. So I'll stick with the traditional internet with all its complexit…

What's Tailscale's value prop? It's just a kludge together of various FOSS heavyweights..?

Re: The New Internet

#53

Post by sfRattan »

Bluecobra wrote: post #49
sfRattan wrote: post #18

As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network , I've had a feeling more and more that we're on the cusp of something transformative... For those who want it and those who care. There's an ecosystem of mostly FOSS software now designed to run on a home network and replace big, centralized, cloud providers. That software is right on the edge of being easy enough for…

> As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network Funnily enough, I was once like this but now I have deliberately moved everything to the big cloud providers as I don’t want to deal with the toil of running my own homelab anymore. This is coming from someone who used to have a FreeBSD server with ZFS disks and using jails to run various things like pf, samba, etc.…

I tried once or twice in the early 2010s to set up a home server and had a similar experience to what you describe. Stuff would break and I wouldn't want to spend time fixing it.

I think part of the excitement I'm feeling is that the ecosystem today feels way more stable and mature than it did a decade to a decade and a half ago. Home Assistant, Jellyfin, TrueNAS, and a few other things have all pretty much run themselves for me with almost no downtime (other than one blackout that happened while I was traveling and drained my UPS) for the past nine months. There's tinkering to get it all up and running, but way less maintenance than I remember in the past.

Re: The New Internet

#54

Post by zoom6628 »

sfRattan wrote: post #18

As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network , I've had a feeling more and more that we're on the cusp of something transformative... For those who want it and those who care. There's an ecosystem of mostly FOSS software now designed to run on a home network and replace big, centralized, cloud providers. That software is right on the edge of being easy enough for…

Totally this. I am old enough to remember LAN fun times. And writing software since 1970s at high school.

And Tailscale works for me to create my own network of phones, laptops, desktops and a remote node at DO. Works brilliantly to cross geo boundaries, borders, wifi networks(home has multiple) and seamless moving between mobile networks and wired.

Not sure will create a new internet or not but at least a new intranet where all my devices are reachable and controllable.

Re: The New Internet

#55

Post by tionis »

ZoomZoomZoom wrote: post #28

Isn't yggdrasil[1] supposed to be the New Internet? If not, why Tailscale specifically, and not Netbird, Nebula, Netmaker or some other competitor? The article is indeed very well written, but gives the wrong vibes, like something's coming: acquisition, pivot, split, shutting down, etc. Also, "we're re just getting started", the famous last words. Just to balance my healthy mistrust, I'd like to add that I'm a satisf…

Yggdrasil would indeed better fit the description. It should however be noted, that, while it does work great, is still a research project.

Re: The New Internet

#56

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

jgalt212 wrote: post #16
figassis wrote: post #9

I love Tailscale, but this post gives me the creeps. The internet succeeded because it was built on standards and was completely free. With Tailscale, I get wireguard is open source and we have things like Headscale. But the whole everyone gets an IP, doesn’t it depend on Tailscale owning a massive ip address space? We can all wait until full ipv6 rollout, or we can depend on centralized ipv4, and servers and proprie…

If you had to move off of tailscale, what would you move to?

I think nebula is the obvious FOSS competitor? With the unfortunate exception of the Android client being closed source.

Re: The New Internet

#57

Post by teddyh »

The eternal problem with companies like Tailscale (and Cloudflare, Google, etc. etc.) is that, by solving a problem with the modern internet which the internet should have been designed to solve by itself, like simple end-to-end secure connectivity, Tailscale becomes incentivized to keep the problem. What the internet would need is something like IPv6 with automatic encryption via IPsec, with PKI provided by DNSSEC. But Tailscale has every incentive to prevent such things to be widely and compatibly implemented, because it would destroy their business. Their whole business depends on the problem persisting.

(Repost of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38570370>)

Re: The New Internet

#58

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

throw0101d wrote: post #48
Bluecobra wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some very valid points here though: https://apenwarr.ca/log/20170810

Here is a list of of proposals for what could have replaced IPv4: * https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1454.html Here are the technical criteria for choosing the (then-labelled) IPng: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1726 And finally the evaluation of the available candidates and why the winner was chosen: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1752 If someone doesn't want to use IPv6, then what they're…

> If someone doesn't want to use IPv6, then what they're effectively suggesting is that we create a new protocol, and role it out to every smartphone, tablet, laptop, desktop, server, (Wifi) router/CPE, ISP router, SMB router, enterprise switches, and IoT device. Meanwhile we've already effectively run out of IPv4 addresses (e.g., ARIN and RIPE pools are zero) and are just shuffling about whatever is left in auctions.

Although I've heard some ideas for a IPv4.1 that suffer from the obvious problem, I think the far more common view is rather that v4 is fine and its only problem is solved by NAT. Which I agree isn't actually a long term solution, but let's try to meet the stronger argument.

Re: The New Internet

#59

Post by metadat »

eddythompson80 wrote: post #40
metadat wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other VPN, but my windows machine firewall is on and it pings fine. Anyway, tailscale still has more to go. Inviting someone to your tailnet doesn't seem to be the same as adding a machine yourself.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. On a given tailnet, users can only reach their own machines. Each machine that joins the network has an “owner” shown under the machine name in the admin portal. By default users can only reach their own machines, not everyone’s else’s. As the network admin you can manage that through the ACLs tab.

And this is why tailscale isn't solving the fundamental issues of connectivity. Thanks and cheers eddythompson80.

Re: The New Internet

#60

Post by compootr »

intelVISA wrote: post #52
imiric wrote: post #8

I like Tailscale, but this reads as too self-aggrandizing. You have a mesh VPN product with some value-added services on top of it. That's great, but this idea isn't novel or unique. Why should your solution be the "new internet" instead of any of the alternatives? I wouldn't want to rely on a single company for all my internet infrastructure, anyway. So I'll stick with the traditional internet with all its complexit…

What's Tailscale's value prop? It's just a kludge together of various FOSS heavyweights..?

precisely. Isn't every business that plus some custom stuff & employee time?

i.e., isn't some business is just a kludge of FOSS heavyweights, say for example, when they write an app in some open source language, deploy it on an open source OS with open source orchestration etc

I think Tailscale is a lot of foss software, with the utility that it lowers the barrier to entry massively

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