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Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

nature.com

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Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#161

Post by mrinterweb »

velcrovan wrote: post #21
vouaobrasil wrote: post #15

I like caffeine. It's fun to drink a cup of tea or coffee once in a while and feel an extra surge of productivity. What I don't like is that it has encouraged the grind of people working far longer and harder than they should for no reason except economic gain which is fundamnetally unsustainable. When people feel tired, they should take a break, and not develop a habit of drinking caffeine every day to keeep going.…

I think people should be able to do what they want with their time. I don’t think people should have to sell their labor for a wage in order to live. I wonder what happens to your opinions about caffeine in a society where owners have little to no leverage over workers, or where the workers are generally also the owners.

Ideally we would live in that utopia, but the vast majority of us live in the reality of needing a wage.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#162

Post by Terr_ »

code51 wrote: post #12
Terr_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's far too early to assume assume the "swelling" is a net harm or that preventing it is good in the long run. Perhaps it serves an important protective or regulatory purpose which we haven't yet identified, because we still know so little about sleep and consciousness. An analogy: There are lots of systems in your body that try to prevent and deter you from casually walking on a damaged leg, and we can over…

So it very well could be that thinking on a worn neuron, trying to do memory access on it, might damage it even more (leg analogy)? It could be possible that the "swelling" could be redirecting brain to use other paths but with caffeine you're utilizing a worn-out neuron. Maybe with chronic deprivation + caffeine habit, you're weakening your cognitive function - repeatedly using a misfiring neuron. At least, with no…

IANANeuroscientist, but my idle-thought was that a lack of sleep could cause a buildup of waste byproducts, and structural adaptations might either reduce the effect of the buildup or else make its removal marginally easier.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#163

Post by com2kid »

skhunted wrote: post #145
BazookaMusic wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the first time you try something the new experience can be overwhelming. You can focus on a specific part of an experience, for example the bitterness of a drink and quickly decide you don't like it. It can also be that the first time you try something you are in a bad mood or negatively predisposed towards something, eg. your parents may have said something tastes bad while growing up and you haven't tried…

I’m specifically talking about taste and not experiences in general. I don’t like the taste of something I don’t try it again. I haven’t found it limiting and as I said I don’t understand people drinking coffee enough to acquire a taste for it. I know people do this and they end up liking coffee. I just don’t understand that mentality though. It’s not for me but clearly is for some people.

Brains find familiar things comforting and "good". Brains can also find brand new things, especially experiences that have nothing in common with anything we've encountered in the past, as "bad".

This applies to almost everything. Music is a good example, someone who has only grown up listening to folk music will likely find death metal incredibly hard to listen to, but they may find folk metal a little bit relatable.

Same goes for art, when the classical artists first came out with super realistic portraits, many people found them ugly and repulsive, because they were so different than what came before. Then when things got more abstract, the same reaction occurred.

This is also why people may not like a new song until they have heard it a bunch of times, then it can become one of their favorites! It lights up the "I know this thing" pathways in the brain.

Well food is the same. People from cultures that don't eat cheese are not likely to enjoy a super stinky cheese to start with, but you can likely give them a mozzarella or a super mild Brie and they'll be fine with it (possibly after trying it a few times). Then after their brain gets used to "this is brie cheese, and it is pretty good" they may end up enjoying a slightly more aged/funkier brie cheese, and after a few years down that path they can be eating a wide variety of soft cheeses.

This is why trying food again is worthwhile.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#164

Post by olegious »

EZ-E wrote: post #130

Side topic, but dropping coffee was the best thing I ever did. I used to drink only one cup a day, rarely two, for many years - but turns out when I stopped (for reasons unrelated) my anxiety unexpectedly 80% went away after a week or so without any other changes in my lifestyle. It was a big difference and I feel now very different than what I used to. I wake up much better rested too (much easier to get out of bed)…

Just curious, how do you define anxiety?

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#165

Post by DontchaKnowit »

Modified3019 wrote: post #141
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in my experience, not very addictive at all. But at the same time, I didn't have easy access to it, and I was already heavily addicted to amphetamines at the time, so maybe my experience isn't typical. But I was able to do some, wait a few days, do some more, etc. With amphetamines, If I had them, I was taking em all day every day. Also when you do the math on what a coke habit costs to maintain, its mind boggling. I…

I’m curious, what do amphetamines feel like to you that makes them addictive? For several months I took (extended release) dextroamphetamine and later lisdexamfetamine, because I was having a mental health crisis from a lifelong ignorance of ADHD(inattentive type), autism, and what was probably some sort of covid induced severe depression. This was in addition to Wellbutrin. While I’ve not found them useful in regard…

When I take them, anything I do feels insanely gratifying. Its just euphoric. Like as soon as they kick in I feel like im on a big drop on a rollercoaster.

It goes away quick though, and gets replaced by a cadre of horrible side effects, which makes me just want more. They also make my mind race with ideas which excites me. They are never good and never go anywhere but the racing thoughts are thrilling.

Honestly cant describe why I was so impulsive with them. Like I knew they made me feel horrible on a longer time scale but I still ate them like m&ms.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#167

Post by mrinterweb »

regularfry wrote: post #7
Strumpfli wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I concluded as well. What seems interesting is that sleep deprivation alone increased the GM, while combined with caffeine, the effect is reversed. Surprising, since I feel like the general impression on caffeine in media is that it does not harm the brain.

My interpretation of that (especially over a short period like this) is that sleep restriction causes swelling in the grey matter, which caffeine reverses. Interpreted like that, caffeine would be protecting the brain, not harming it.

How did you make that connection? I didn't get that info from this study, but I have seen other studies that suggest sleep deprivation causes neuroinflammation, and I have seen studies that say coffee can reduce neuroinflammation. I have seen that the neuroinflammation described as a defense mechanism to assist with the removal of toxins. Possible connection being that if coffee reduces neuroinflammation when there are toxins present that may be a cause for more damage? I have zero qualifications, just trying to understand.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9658704/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5476750/

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#168

Post by [deleted] »

SkyBelow wrote: post #134
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what the drug war has done to our minds. People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. If it were legal to produce meth your local meth-head would not be raiding your house for copper because it would be cheap enough that his minimum wage job could support his habit.' And frankly I've showed up to important events absolutely fu…

>People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. I'm about as caffeinated as most anyone else I know, and I would not. There are times where just putting on a pot of coffee is too much work for me to make my daily fix and I lazily skip it for the day. I do get withdrawal headaches and probably behave a bit differently, but even then some…

[deleted]

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#169

Post by DontchaKnowit »

thecrash wrote: post #85
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what the drug war has done to our minds. People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. If it were legal to produce meth your local meth-head would not be raiding your house for copper because it would be cheap enough that his minimum wage job could support his habit.' And frankly I've showed up to important events absolutely fu…

Drug war bad, but I'm not sure these drugs can be equated so simply. Caffeine has a mild euphoric effect but not nearly as much as meth. Both caffeine users and meth users are prone to hyper-focused behavior loops - e.g. super meticulous house cleaning. But meth is so much more euphoric that the behaviors don't have to be intrinsically rewarding at all. For many people, when you feel that high, doing pretty much anyt…

I agree, but Id say theyre part of the same continuum rather than fundamentally different.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#170

Post by skhunted »

com2kid wrote: post #163
skhunted wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m specifically talking about taste and not experiences in general. I don’t like the taste of something I don’t try it again. I haven’t found it limiting and as I said I don’t understand people drinking coffee enough to acquire a taste for it. I know people do this and they end up liking coffee. I just don’t understand that mentality though. It’s not for me but clearly is for some people.

Brains find familiar things comforting and "good". Brains can also find brand new things, especially experiences that have nothing in common with anything we've encountered in the past, as "bad". This applies to almost everything. Music is a good example, someone who has only grown up listening to folk music will likely find death metal incredibly hard to listen to, but they may find folk metal a little bit relatable…

As it pertains to food and drink I don’t agree with or understand repeatedly trying something I don’t like. It’s good that you find that it works for you but it doesn’t for me. Cabbage makes me vomit. I don’t like it and will never again knowingly try it. Once was enough.
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