Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction • Hacker News Board

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#141

Post by Modified3019 » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:20 PM UTC

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #73

hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard investment bankers rely on it from the 90s. How addictive it is?

in my experience, not very addictive at all. But at the same time, I didn't have easy access to it, and I was already heavily addicted to amphetamines at the time, so maybe my experience isn't typical. But I was able to do some, wait a few days, do some more, etc. With amphetamines, If I had them, I was taking em all day every day. Also when you do the math on what a coke habit costs to maintain, its mind boggling. I…

I’m curious, what do amphetamines feel like to you that makes them addictive?

For several months I took (extended release) dextroamphetamine and later lisdexamfetamine, because I was having a mental health crisis from a lifelong ignorance of ADHD(inattentive type), autism, and what was probably some sort of covid induced severe depression. This was in addition to Wellbutrin.

While I’ve not found them useful in regards to the ADHD, the amphetamines seemed to be highly effective antidepressants in my case.

The very first day I started, I felt something that wasn’t really euphoria, but more like a sense of wellbeing after months of daily spirals of passive suicidal ideation that would last for hours. But after that first day I basically felt no effects, other than not having depression. I didn’t feel good, I simply didn’t feel involuntarily bad anymore.

Other effects -I was able to find a small degree of self satisfaction after working out (with a trainer, or it would not have happened), rather than it being 100% suck during and after, with the only motivation being intellectual. It should be noted that working out had no observable benefit towards my depression. -I was somewhat more chatty if I had lapsed taking the pills and had started again. -I think it somewhat negatively affected late evening drowsiness and energy levels during the day (made me more prone to wanting naps around noon)

Eventually whatever was causing my underlying depression seemed to resolve, so I simply ceased taking the medications since there was simply no reason to continue. There is no desire to take my remaining pills, it’s just nice to have a tool known and available should I get another depression flare up. A blended mocha is far more tempting.

So I’m curious what amphetamine addiction feels like, what do they do for you that pulls at you?

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#142

Post by 0x457 » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #106

xanderlewis wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caffeine addicts are standing in line at Starbucks Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Caffeine pills are an absurdity to me because I only drink coffee for the taste. Why suffer the unwanted effects of a drug without the enjoyment that it’s supposed to come with?

Are they ordering decaf?

I make coffee at home and I always have decaf beans on hand. Sometimes I just want to:

a) Go through a process of making espresso (yay coffee toys^Wtools)

b) Just want to drink some coffee because of its taste

I eye-ball how much caffeine I consume and cut-off myself waaaay before the guideline and 10 hours before target bedtime. Given that caffeine half life is about 5 hours it works out perfectly. However, if still want coffee due to any of the reasons above - I make decaff.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#143

Post by neves » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

xanderlewis wrote: post #97

kkielhofner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> highly profitable substance Yes and no. I've been a fan of caffeine pills for years. They are very cheap, readily available (portable), and most importantly to me offer completely consistent dosing. With caffeine pills I'm able to ensure I stay below the FDA recommended maximum daily intake of 400 mg (worst case). Another fun bonus - when a physician asks you what your caffeine intake is and you respond in milligra…

> caffeine addicts are standing in line at Starbucks Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Caffeine pills are an absurdity to me because I only drink coffee for the taste. Why suffer the unwanted effects of a drug without the enjoyment that it’s supposed to come with?

I agree with you about the experience, but nobody who really likes coffee goes to Starbuck for the taste:-). They are really addicted

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#144

Post by xyst » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

wildzzz wrote: post #79

kkielhofner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> highly profitable substance Yes and no. I've been a fan of caffeine pills for years. They are very cheap, readily available (portable), and most importantly to me offer completely consistent dosing. With caffeine pills I'm able to ensure I stay below the FDA recommended maximum daily intake of 400 mg (worst case). Another fun bonus - when a physician asks you what your caffeine intake is and you respond in milligra…

My wife uses caffeine pills on occasion but I prefer energy drinks most mornings alongside something like toast. Obviously more expensive but the drink has a slower come-up (likely due to the extra water and food). Whenever I do take pills instead, I'm in a rush so I'm not drinking more water than necessary and definitely not eating anything. I like the Celsius drink mixes since I can put one in my water bottle and d…

> I like the Celsius drink mixes since I can put one in my water bottle and dose slowly over the course of the morning but they aren't that much cheaper than buying a case of cans.

In addition to your caffeine, you get a “healthy” dose of synthetic sugar (aka Sucralose) [1] and other crap added by the drink company to market it as “healthy”

Personally, I can’t stand those drinks. Every “0 calorie, 0 sugar” drink is nearly identical in ingredients. Some use different forms of synthetic sugar. The taste is off putting.

Sure, there _might_ not be a glycemic spike but at what cost that has not been studied?

- what’s the impact to gut microbiome?

- what’s the impact to other human physiology? (Increased cancer risk?)

I’ll take my risk with real sugar and just limit the consumption to very sparingly.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucralose

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37256996/

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#145

Post by skhunted » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

BazookaMusic wrote: post #110

skhunted wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the acquired taste thing. If I don’t like the taste the first time I try something then there won’t be a second time. Why acquire a taste for something you didn’t originally like?

Sometimes the first time you try something the new experience can be overwhelming. You can focus on a specific part of an experience, for example the bitterness of a drink and quickly decide you don't like it. It can also be that the first time you try something you are in a bad mood or negatively predisposed towards something, eg. your parents may have said something tastes bad while growing up and you haven't tried…

I’m specifically talking about taste and not experiences in general. I don’t like the taste of something I don’t try it again. I haven’t found it limiting and as I said I don’t understand people drinking coffee enough to acquire a taste for it. I know people do this and they end up liking coffee. I just don’t understand that mentality though. It’s not for me but clearly is for some people.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#146

Post by meroes » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #76

nikanj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do joke about being dangerous without their morning coffee, but I have yet to see a coffee addict breaking into vehicles to score their morning fix. Also I have never had to worry someone is going to mug my loved ones to get some quick cash for a double-double. And have you ever heard of someone who skips important appointments because they stayed out getting high on caffeine instead Pretending caffeine is as…

This is what the drug war has done to our minds. People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. If it were legal to produce meth your local meth-head would not be raiding your house for copper because it would be cheap enough that his minimum wage job could support his habit.' And frankly I've showed up to important events absolutely fu…

I have to agree when my coworkers and I are chugging energy drinks from before work till the afternoon. I finally quit that level of intake because of panic attacks (still have 1-2 cups of coffee occasionally).

240mg of caffeine for breakfast! Certainly!

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#147

Post by elevaet » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

guhidalg wrote: post #104

xanderlewis wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caffeine addicts are standing in line at Starbucks Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Caffeine pills are an absurdity to me because I only drink coffee for the taste. Why suffer the unwanted effects of a drug without the enjoyment that it’s supposed to come with?

> Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Not the OP, but to respond to your question I think that Starbucks is actually hitting its customers with a triple-whammy of caffeine, sugar, and fat that most brains can't resist addiction to. Are you sure they actually enjoy Starbucks coffee and not its addictive components?

It's that triple-whammy plus the comfort of consuming the spell that Starbucks has woven for their customers.

I think for a lot of people buying a "special" coffee/thing at Starbucks squeezes that "I'm treating myself" gland just right.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#148

Post by rfrey » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

skhunted wrote: post #102

luqtas wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you are bitting the dust of getting used to the taste of a drug, just like people who drink wine, beer etc. these are literally toxic & you get a natural avoidance response the 1° time you try, with very rare cases of acceptance without repulse

I never understood the acquired taste thing. If I don’t like the taste the first time I try something then there won’t be a second time. Why acquire a taste for something you didn’t originally like?

I wonder how long my son would have survived on an exclusive McDonalds french fry diet.

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#149

Post by shrimp_emoji » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #148

skhunted wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the acquired taste thing. If I don’t like the taste the first time I try something then there won’t be a second time. Why acquire a taste for something you didn’t originally like?

I wonder how long my son would have survived on an exclusive McDonalds french fry diet.

Probably to 53: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/24/entertainment/morgan-spurlock...

Re: Caffeine suppresses cerebral grey matter responses to chronic sleep restriction

#150

Post by NBJack » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

jwells89 wrote: post #82

andor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would claim that for regular users of caffeine, it merely restores function to a baseline level.

While I don’t have hard evidence to support the idea, I believe this is highly variable between individuals. I’m not a heavy coffee drinker, but I do have a cup in the mornings some time between 6:30-8:00. This makes it easy to stop as needed; there are some days where I skip it out of necessity (too busy), and occasionally I’ll go a weekend without it just to keep my tolerance in check. During these periods, I never…

I strongly suspect this manifests more in folks that consistently intake > 100mg per day. I used to regularly intake 200mg total across ~2 beverages (mostly because I just enjoyed the flavor), and suffered mild headaches if I skipped my schedule. I know others that start their day with 200mg in a single, quad shot beverage.